* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. PERMITS REQUIRES [00:00:01] A MAJORITY VOTE OF THE BOARD ARE THREE YAY VOTES. TODAY WE HAVE ALL FIVE MEMBERS PRESENT. [Wetlands Board on January 22, 2026.] WE HAVE A QUORUM FROM MY RIGHT TO LEFT. MR. GICK, VICE CHAIR, MR. WARD. MR. TAYLOR, MR. BADGER. AND I'M TEE LEE BIRD. I, MY, I MAY INTRODUCE OUR STAFF AND OFFICIALS PRESENT. WE HAVE MS. GINGER HARMON, UH, WHO IS ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT MR. PAUL WATSON, WHO'S ALREADY TAKEN HIS PLACE. UM, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF CODE ADMINISTRATION DIVISION. MR. PBIT IS NOT HERE. UH, MS. CLAIRE ORMAN, WHO IS, UH, WITH VIRGINIA MARINE RESOURCES COMMISSION, VMRC, THE BOARD IS AWARE OF AND COMPLIES AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE TO THE OBJECTIVE OF THE VIRGINIA MARINE RESOURCE COMMISSION WETLANDS POLICY OF NO NET LOSS. ALL PERMITS ARE GRANTED FOR A TWO YEAR PERIOD FROM THE DATE OF THIS HEARING, UNLESS SPECIFICALLY NOTED ALL PERSONS SPEAKING BEFORE THE BOARD WILL BE SWORN IN. ALL RIGHT. I ASSUME THAT, UM, EVERYONE HAS TIME TO LOOK OVER THIS MONTH'S AGENDA. UH, ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS FROM THE BOARD, UM, OFFICERS? YES. YES. UH, WE WILL DO THAT. AND COMING INTO OFFICERS IS MY PLAN. UH, SO, UH, VOTE, UH, SET, UH, MOTION FOR THE AGENDA CHAIRMAN. SECOND WITH THE, WITH THE OFFICER. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. MUST HAVE GOTTEN SOME PAGES MIXED UP HERE, DIDN'T I? WELL, ALL RIGHT. WE'LL LEAD OFF, UH, MR. PAUL WATSON. UH, YOU HAVE THE FLOOR, SIR. UH, THANK YOU. PAUL WATSON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF CODE ADMINISTRATION. AND SINCE THE OFFICER'S TERMS ENDED WITH THE LAST MEETING, I'LL PRESIDE OVER THE MEETING UNTIL THE CHAIRPERSON IS ELECTED. THE FLOOR IS NOW OPEN FOR NOMINATIONS FOR CHAIRPERSON. MR. PAUL, I'D LIKE TO NOMINATE MR. TD BUR FOR CHAIRMAN AT THE WETLAND BOARD. I'LL SECOND. ANY OTHER NOMINATIONS? HEARING NONE. THE FLOOR IS NOW CLOSED FOR NOMINATIONS. ALL IN FAVOR OF ELECTING MR. T LEE BIRD AS CHAIRPERSON OF THE WETLANDS BOARD FOR THE CALENDAR YEAR 2026. PLEASE SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE. AYE. ALL OPPOSED MOTION PASSES. UH, CONGRATULATIONS, MR. BY OH, THANK YOU SO MUCH, . THE FLOOR IS NOW OPEN FOR NOMINATIONS FOR VICE CHAIRMAN FOR THE WETLANDS BOARD FOR THE CALENDAR YEAR 2026. AYE, MR. CHAIRMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO NOMINATE MR. GEORGE WARD FOR VICE CHAIRMAN OF THE WETLANDS BOARD. SECOND. ANY OTHER NOMINATIONS? HEARING NONE. THE FLOOR IS NOW CLOSED FOR NOMINATIONS. ALL IN FAVOR OF ELECTING MR. WARD AS VICE CHAIRPERSON OF THE WETLANDS BOARD FOR THE CALENDAR YEAR 2026. PLEASE SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE. AYE. ALL OPPOSED. CONGRATULATIONS MR. WARD. OKAY. THANK YOU MR. WARD. AND HERE WE GO AGAIN. ALL RIGHT, SIR. UH, SINCE I HAVE ALREADY DONE THE, UM, SINCE I'VE ALREADY DONE THE, UH, AGENDA, UM, MOVE ON TO I THINK NUMBER THREE, UH, ANNUAL REAL ESTATE DISCLOSURE FORMS. UH, MS. HARMON, MAY I ASK IF, UM, ALL IS IN ORDER AND ENDORSED FORMS HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED? YES, SIR. THANK YOU. UH, SO WE ARE GOOD TO GO THERE. NOTHING ELSE HAS TO BE DONE. IS THAT CORRECT? UH, THAT IS AS, AS LONG AS EVERYBODY'S TURNED IT IN. THAT'S ALL WE NEED. AND, AND WE'LL HANDLE IT FROM THERE. WE HAVE UNTIL THE FRONT PART OF THE MONTH. I THINK I'M CORRECT. FEBRUARY 1ST. YES. FEBRUARY 1ST. ALRIGHT. UM, MOVING ON TO, UH, NUMBER FOUR PLEASE. 4 0 1 THE MINUTES. HAS EVERYONE HAD TIME TO REVIEW THE MINUTES OF THE DECEMBER 18TH MEETING OF THE WETLANDS BOARD? [00:05:01] A FEW CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE AND SUBMITTED. THANK YOU, SIR. MR. GICK, UH, IF SO, HAS EVERYONE HAD TIME TO LOOK 'EM OVER? MAY I ASK FOR A MOTION TO ACCEPT THE MINUTES? UH, MS. BIRD, I WILL MAKE THE MOTION TO ACCEPT THE MINUTES FROM DECEMBER, 2025. THANK YOU, MR. GADIG. A SECOND. THANK YOU. MR. WARD VOTE PLEASE. I THEN THE, I ABSTAIN. I WASN'T AT THE MEETING. OKAY. UH, THEN THE RE IN THE BOOK, WE'RE GONNA MOVE ON TO NUMBER FIVE. OLD BUSINESS VIOLATION SUMMARY. MR. WATSON, UH, YOU'RE ALREADY AT THE PODIUM, SO WOULD YOU BRING US THROUGH THESE ISSUES? UH, THE FIRST IS THE CAPTAIN'S COVE, UH, GOLF AND YACHT CLUB. UH, STILL HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE JPA. I HAVE SEEN A DRAFT OF THE JPAI AM EXPECTING TO GET THAT VERY SOON. UM, AND I ANTICIPATE THAT JPA TO BE SOME TYPE OF LIVING SHORELINE PROJECT THAT WOULD INVOLVE, UH, RESTORATION OF ALL THE MARSH WAS AFFECTED BY THE DUMPING OF THE CONCRETE RIP WRAP INTO THE MARSH. YES, SIR. WE DISCUSSED THIS LAST MONTH. UH, REMIND ME PLEASE. UH, THE JPA WHEN IT, WHEN WAS IT TO BE SUBMITTED TO YOU? I HAVE NOT, EXCUSE ME. I HAVEN'T GOTTEN A FIRM PROMISE ON THAT, BUT I DO KNOW THEY ARE WORKING ON IT. UH, THEY'VE OBVIOUSLY EMPLOYED SOMEBODY WHO HAS SENT ME A DRAFT, UH, WHICH LOOKED PRETTY GOOD. UM, AND, UH, BUT JUST HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE ACTUAL JPA YET. ALRIGHT. I, I, SO THEY'RE ON IT. HAVE SOMEBODY DOING. THEY DO. AND I, I'M PLANNING, I HAVE NOT, UH, GIVEN THEM ANY TYPE OF ULTIMATUM YET, BUT AT, AT THIS POINT, I I, I WILL GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM AND TELL 'EM WE'RE, THEY'VE GOT SOMEBODY WORKING ON IT. UH, WE ARE HERE TO HELP NOT, UH, NAIL 'EM AS EVERYBODY. UH, WELL, I JUST WANT, UH, I GUESS I DON'T KNOW IF WE'LL WANT TO SET A TIME THAT, BUT YOU'RE, YOU ARE CONFIDENT THAT THEY'RE MOVING FORWARD. 'CAUSE I DON'T WANT TO HAVE THAT, WHAT WE CALL CRAP WRAP THERE FOR EXTENDED PERIOD. IT'S BEEN A FEW WEEKS SINCE I SPOKE WITH THEM, SO I DO NEED TO CALL 'EM AND TRY AND, AND GET AN UPDATE AND AT LEAST ASK FOR A DEPUTY ASK FOR A DATE. THEIR AGENT'S PRETTY RELIABLE. HE, HE, HE WHO MAY, MAY I ASK WHO THEIR AGENT IS? UM, I, CHRIS MCCABE. OH, THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. AND HE'LL DO WHAT HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO DO. I THINK YOU ALL CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK. MM-HMM . ALRIGHT, MOVE AHEAD, SIR. UM, THE NEXT ONE ARE THE COM, THE CAMONS AND AND C**K. AND A JPA WAS SUBMITTED FOR THIS VIOLATION AND IT PROVIDED FOR A LIVING SHORELINE FOR THE COMPLETE RESTORATION OF THE MARSH. AND IT WAS, AND WAS PERMITTED AS A LIVING SHORELINE AS EXEMPT. UH, SO THAT, OF COURSE, THEY HAVEN'T FINISHED THE WORK YET, BUT THAT APPEARS TO BE, UH, WELL ON ITS WAY OF BEING TAKEN CARE OF. NOT A, EXCUSE ME SIR, GO AHEAD. THEY DID GET A BREAK AS FAR AS THE CHESAPEAKE BAY ACT BUFFER. SO IF YOU DO SEE THE PROJECT FROM THE WATER, IT MIGHT LOOK A LITTLE UNUSUAL HAVING RIPRAP ON THE BANK. BUT THAT WAS DUE TO A, UH, CONFUSION WITH THE TOWN OF C**K. AND THE, FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, DEQ HAS GIVEN THEM A LITTLE BIT OF A BREAK ALLOWING THEM TO, UH, PLACE SOME OR AT LEAST ALLOW THE RIP WRAP TO REMAIN ON THE BANK BECAUSE OF THE INITIAL CONFUSION. BUT THAT'S OUTSIDE OF OUR JURISDICTION. AND, UH, YES, THAT IS CERTAINLY OUTSIDE OUR JURISDICTION. JUST SOMETHING UNUSUAL IF YOU LOOKED AT THE PROJECT. IT DOES NOT LOOK EXACTLY RIGHT. , IF I MIGHT ADD NUMBER ONE, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. IT WAS THE TOWN, TOWN MANAGER. THE PEOPLE, UH, THAT OWN IT, UH, WANT TO DO IT RIGHT. UM, THEY ARE DOING A GREAT JOB. UH, EVEN THOUGH IT'S OUT OF OUR JURISDICTION, I WAS THERE. THEY'RE GOING TO USE WHAT THEY NEED. DO NOT USE THE REST. AND OF MY 70 YEARS OF IN AND OUTTA THAT CREEK, EXCEPT FOR UP THE GUTS AND SO FORTH. IT'S ABOUT THE BEST PLACE FOR A LIVING THAT I KNOW OF IN MY LIFETIME OF RUNNING AROUND THERE. SO I THINK IT'LL BE A GREAT JOB. UH, AND I HOPE TO GET IT IN AND GET, UH, EVERYTHING IN ORDER BEFORE WE HAVE A STORM. AND I'LL JUST ADD TO YOUR COMMENT AND SAY, FOR THEIR BENEFIT, THEY WERE VERY NICE TO DEAL WITH AND THEY RECEIVED SOME BAD ADVICE. THEY HAD NO IDEA THAT THEY WERE COMMITTING A WETLANDS VIOLATION. MR. WATSON, DO WE NEED TO DO ANYTHING? DO WE NEED TO VACATE THE VIOLATION? DO WE NEED TO HAVE A VOTE HERE OR WHAT? UH, HOW YOU, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IT PROCEED? UM, SO I SUBMITTED A SWORN COMPLAINT BEFORE THE BOARD AND WE NEVER, [00:10:01] UH, NOTIFIED THEM THAT THEY HAD TO COME IN AND ANSWER THE COMPLAINT. UH, BECAUSE BY THAT POINT, THEY HAD ALREADY ENGAGED A CONSULTANT WHO HAD ADVISED ME THEY WERE GONNA PURSUE A LIVING SHORELINE OPTION. SO I DON'T THINK THE BOARD NEEDS TO ACT ON ANYTHING BECAUSE WHILE I NOTIFIED THE BOARD, THE BOARD HAS NOT REALLY TAKEN ANY ACTION. I'M JUST CHECKING. OKAY. THANK YOU. MR. GICK. UH, WHEN THIS OCCURRED AFTER THEY WERE MADE AWARE OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED WITH THE TOWN, I DON'T THINK I WAS ON COUNCIL THEN. I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT I CERTAINLY WAS, UH, INVOLVED AND, UH, THEY COULDN'T WAIT TO CLEAR IT SAID THEY WOULD DO ANYTHING WE WANTED TO DO. UH, MR. WATSON, UH, DETERMINED THAT THERE WAS NOTHING EXCEPT FIX IT. UH, PARTICULARLY, UH, AFTER, UM, THEY DETERMINED THAT THE RIP WRAP WAS MOVED AND EVEN THOUGH IT'S OUT OF OUR JURISDICTION, THEY'RE GOING TO FIX IT. UH, AND THEY'RE WONDERFUL PEOPLE AND THEY'LL GET IT DONE. UM, AND THE LAST VIOLATION IS UNFORTUNATELY THE THIRD TIME WE'VE VISITED THIS PROJECT ON SHIITE BY B INC. IT WAS BOTH THE CONTRACTOR AND THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY. UM, HERE IS THE PROPERTY IDENTIFIED AS 2 3 8 3 MAIN STREET ON SHIITE. AND SO THE INITIAL VIOLATION WAS THAT THIS AREA THAT IS WATER, AT LEAST AT THE POINT THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN, WAS BULKHEAD. UM, THEY WERE CITED, THEY PULLED BACK THE BULKHEAD, UH, TO BE IN COMPLIANCE ON THAT CORNER. THEN IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THIS CORNER WAS INCORRECT. ALSO, THEY WERE BROUGHT IN FOR A VIOLATION ON THAT CORNER, BUT I THINK MOSTLY BECAUSE THE INITIAL DRAWINGS WERE MAYBE NOT THE CLEAREST, UH, THE BOARD DID ALLOW THAT CORNER TO REMAIN. SO A FEW WEEKS AGO WE VISITED THE SITE AND THIS AREA RIGHT HERE, UM, OH, THERE, IT'S THIS AREA RIGHT HERE IS WHAT YOU'LL SEE IN THE NEXT PICTURE. SO INSTEAD OF THIS AREA BEING BULKHEAD, THEY JUST COVERED IT UP WITH THE DOCK. IT'S NOT PERMITTED. SO THIS ENTIRE AREA RIGHT HERE IS WHERE THE BULKHEAD WAS. THEY WERE ORDERED TO PULL IT BACK, AND NOW THEY'VE JUST, I GUESS, DECKED OR DOCKED IT OVER WITHOUT THE PROPER PERMITTING. AND HERE ARE SOME OTHER VIEWS OF THAT. AND THIS IS ME TRYING TO GET THE CAMERA UNDERNEATH SO YOU CAN SEE THIS ENTIRE AREA THAT HAS BEEN DECKED OVER. UM, WE DID MEET WITH MR. BRITTON ON SITE AND, UM, THERE WERE SOME STATEMENTS MADE THAT THAT DECKING AREA WAS GOING TO BE REMOVED. I DO NOT BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN REMOVED YET. UM, THERE WAS ALSO SOME TALK OF MAYBE HE WAS GOING TO FILE AN AMENDED JPA TO ASK FOR PERMISSION TO DO THAT. SO I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT PATH HE'S GOING TO TAKE. UM, BUT AT THIS POINT, I WOULD JUST SEEKING DIRECTION FROM THE BOARD TO SEE IF YOU WANT TO BRING HIM BACK IN FOR THE NEXT HEARING TO ANSWER FOR BUILDING THIS WITHOUT PROPER PERMIT. UH, QUESTION CARRY, UH, THE BULKHEAD UNDERNEATH THE DOCK, IS THAT IN THE RIGHT AREA? THAT IS IN THE RIGHT AREA? WELL, THE LAST VIOLATION HEARING WE HAD, WE DETERMINED THAT WHILE IT MAY NOT HAVE EXACTLY MATCHED HIS PLANS, THAT THAT WAS EVERYBODY'S INTENTION. AND SO THE BOARD GAVE HIM AN AFTER THE FACT PERMISSION SUCH THAT ALL THE BULKHEADING THAT'S THERE NOW HAS BEEN EITHER PERMITTED OR UH, APPROVED BY THE BOARD. OKAY. SO THAT I, I KNOW THAT WAS A BIG THING IN THAT AREA, BUT, BUT THE BULKHEAD IS CORRECT? YES. OKAY. THAT'S CORRECT. YES. THE, THE ONLY THING THAT'S INCORRECT IS, IS THIS AREA OF DECKING RIGHT HERE. RIGHT. AND THE, UH, IS THAT, IS THAT BULKHEAD? I MEAN, THAT MEAN IS THE DOCK TOTALLY IN HIS, UH, ON HIS PROPERTY? THE DOCK IS AS BEST WE CAN TELL OVER BOTH SUB AQUEOUS AND WETLANDS. SO HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER. HE ASKED HE POTENTIALLY BOTH OF THIS COURT REAL REPORT, HE'D HAVE TO DO A JPA BECAUSE I MEAN VIRGINIA STATE DOCKING THEY IS BY, RIGHT? THAT IS CORRECT. IT'S, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S BY US. HE, HE, HE IS GONNA HAVE TO DO, UH, A NEW JPA AND, AND IT PROBABLY WILL EVEN COME TO US BECAUSE DOCS ARE BY BY RIGHT. IS, UH, ON THE, IT'S ON THIS PROPERTY. IT'S NOT ON DOCKETED. THAT'S, UH, JUST STATE OF VIRGINIA. UM, IT SAYS THAT THE DOC DOCS ARE, UH, EXCEPT FOR [00:15:01] VEG. HMM. EXCEPT FOR VEG. UH, THAT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY. YEAH. UM, AND HE HAS BEEN GIVEN, UH, ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD. THAT'S WHY I WANT YOU TO GO FROM THERE. UH, IT'S IN YOUR AREA. UH, WHAT DO WE DO AT THIS POINT? NOTHING. DO YOU WANT ME TO SEE HIM AND TELL ME I NEED TO PUT, PUT A JPA IN FOR THE, THE DOCK? I WANT YOU TO TELL US WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. WELL, HE'S GOTTA PUT JPN FOR THE DOCK. I MEAN, AND THE DOC WILL BE APPROVED. IS THERE NO JPPA FOR THE DOCK AT THIS POINT? THERE WAS A JPA FOR, WELL, LEMME BACK UP. SO AS YOU SEE THE DOCK THERE, THAT WAS A PERMITTED DOCK. OKAY. UM, SO JUST TO BE CLEAR, THAT ENTIRE STRUCTURE WAS PERMITTED AS EXEMPT FROM LOCAL WETLANDS BOARD. AND I AM ALMOST, I'M SURE THAT VMRC ALSO PERMITTED THE DOCK IS, IT'S JUST THIS AREA RIGHT HERE WAS NEVER PERMITTED, APPLIED FOR OR MENTIONED BEFORE. WE JUST FOUND THAT IT HAD BEEN BUILT. IS THE LOT ITSELF PRIVATE? IT IS. MR. BRITTON HAS SUBDIVIDED IT, I THINK INTO FOUR SEPARATE LOTS AND THERE'S A QUITE LARGE HOUSE BEING BUILT RIGHT HERE. HE ACTUALLY SAID HE WANTED ALL OF THIS AREA BECAUSE I THINK THERE ARE FOUR HOUSES HERE. AND HE WANTED FOUR BIG PICNIC TABLES. ONE FOR EACH HOUSE THAT HE'S GONNA SELL FOR THE SLOT THAT'S BEEN SUBDIVIDED. SO IS THE PIER A COMMUNITY PIER? IT IS. AND WHEN IT WAS BUILT, IT WAS NOT A COMMUNITY PIER, BUT VMRC HAS PUT IT BACK IN REVIEW NOW THAT THE USE HAS CHANGED. OKAY. SO WE DO HAVE SOME JURISDICTION WHERE IT'S A COMMUNITY PEER OVER OVER OUR WETLANDS. UM, WELL THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I'VE TALKED TO BMRC ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THEIR DEFINITION IS OF, OF A PUBLIC PEER IS A MULTI-USER PEER. WHILE OUR DEFINITION JUST SAYS PRIVATE PEERS ARE EXEMPT. SO FROM MY DISCUSSIONS WITH THEM, WE HAVE A, THE LOCAL WETLANDS BOARDS HAVE DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF WHAT'S EXEMPT FROM VMRC. SO THAT'S, I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO ADDRESS THAT ANYWAY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS BOARD WANTED TO, UH, USE VM C'S DEFINITION BECAUSE THE LOCAL WETLANDS ORDINANCE AS A PRIVATE PEER IS EXEMPT. AND THIS IS A PRIVATE PEER, BUT IT'S ALSO MULTI-USER. AND VMRC DEFINES, UH, PRIVATE AS A ONE USER PEER AS OPPOSED TO A MULTI-USER PEER. SO IN THAT INSTANCE, THIS COULD BE JURISDICTIONAL DEPENDING ON THE USAGE OF THAT DEFINITION. THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT QUESTION. IF YOU'LL ALLOW ME PLEASE. UH, MS. GORMAN HAS NOT BEEN SWORN IN YET, BUT YEAH, WHY DON'T, WHY DON'T WE DO THAT SO WE DON'T GO TO JAIL. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD? CLAIRE GORMAN. VMRC. DO YOU FIRMLY SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. ALRIGHT. UH, WOULD YOU BACK UP, SAW YOU SHAKING YOUR HEAD. START AT THE BEGINNING AND TELL US ABOUT THAT. SO, UM, THIS PEER, INITIALLY THEY SUBMITTED A JPA FOR IT FOR A SINGLE USER, PRIVATE PEER. WE ISSUED AN EXEMPTION LETTER. MR. BRITTON LATER CAME BACK AFTER SUBDIVIDING THE PROPERTY INTO THREE PARCELS, UM, AND REQUESTED THAT IT BE CHANGED TO A MULTI-USER AND WHAT WE CALL CONSIDER A COMMERCIAL STRUCTURE. UM, HE DID SUBMIT A JPA FOR THAT AND WE WERE IN THE PROCESS OF, UM, REVIEWING IT. AND THEN WE FOUND THAT HE HAD CONSTRUCTED IT BEFORE HE WAS ISSUED A PERMIT. SO HE WAS WELL AWARE THAT A PERMIT WAS NEEDED FOR THIS STRUCTURE AND THEY CONSTRUCTED IT ANYWAY. UM, IN REGARD TO, YOU KNOW, THE DEFINITIONS BETWEEN CHAPTER 12 AND CHAPTER 13, WE CONSIDER ANYTHING THAT'S MULTI-USER TO BE THE SAME AS COMMERCIAL IN A SENSE AS FAR AS PERMITS AND EXEMPTIONS GO. UM, THE WETLANDS CHAPTER REFERS TO NON-COMMERCIAL AND PRIVATE STRUCTURES. SO HOW YOU ALL INTERPRET THAT IS, UM, A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT OR, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE, UH, PURVIEW IN THAT SENSE. ALRIGHT. UH, AS EVERYONE UNDERSTAND MOST OF WHAT, UH, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND IT APPEARS TO ME THE DEFINITIONS ARE ONLY, UH, SMALL WAYS APART. SO THAT CAN BE DETERMINED BETWEEN U2 OR U THREE. MM-HMM . UH, THE JPA HOLDER AND MR. WATSON AND YOU YEAH. YEAH. AND THAT'S, THAT'S DOABLE IN YOUR OPINION, [00:20:01] IS THAT CORRECT? YES, I THINK SO. AND I SHOULD MENTION THAT WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF ISSUING A NOTICE TO COMPLY AND REQUIRING THAT THEY REMOVE THE, ALL OF THE UNAUTHORIZED DECKING BECAUSE A PORTION OF IT IS OVER STATE OWNED SUBMERGED LANDS, WHICH HE DOES NOT HAVE AUTHORIZATION TO ENCROACH OVER. ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. GORMAN? THE ONE QUESTION THAT I HAVE WHEN HE FILLED THAT AREA, IF YOU REMEMBER MM-HMM . I THINK WE MADE HIM PAY, I THINK WE MADE HIM PAY FOR THAT LAND. IF ANYBODY REMEMBER THAT, I THINK WE MADE HIM PAY FOR THAT LAND THAT'S UNDERNEATH OF IT. SO THAT'S GONNA MAKE IT LITTLE. HE PAID MITIGATION, I BELIEVE, OR UNDERNEATH THAT, WHERE THAT WAS FILLED IN. AND NOW BECAUSE IT WOULD NEVER, BECAUSE IT WOULD YOU DO NOT REMEMBER THAT. BECAUSE IT WOULD, BECAUSE, UH, AND THE REA I TELL YOU THE REASON WAS, UM, PLANNING THERE, YOU CAN SEE THE FE THE PLANNING WOULD NEVER, THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE DID THAT. MM-HMM . THE PLANNING WOULD NEVER RIGHT. HE PAID RESTORATION FOR THE VIOLATION. HE PAID MI YEAH, HE PAID MITIGATION. UH, FOR THAT PROP FOR THAT UNDERNEATH THAT. THAT'S NOT, IS THERE VEGETATIVE WETLANDS UNDERNEATH THE PIER NOW? I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I DON'T RECALL SEEING VEGETATION. I DID NOT SEE THE VEGETATION. AND DID MITIGATION REMEMBER THAT IF YOU DECIDE DID MITIGATION GET PAID? WELL, IT'S ONLY MITIGATION IF IT'S AN AUTHORIZED ENCROACHMENT. IT WAS NOT AUTHORIZED. SO HE PAID, HE PAID RESTORATION FOR THAT BECAUSE IT WAS A VIOLATION. HE DID PAY RESTORATION. IS THAT FOR THE RESTORATION? IS THAT CORRECT? HE PAID RESTORATION, NOT MITIGATION BECAUSE HE DID NOT, I DON'T REMEMBER THE MITIGATION. BUT NOW ON THE, ON A COMMERCIAL DOCK, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR, IF I'M NOT RESPECTING, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT? SHADING OVER OVER. UH, IN TERMS OF, UH, LIKE I SAID, IF, IF THAT DOT WAS APPROVED, YOU, IF YOU PUT THE JPA FOR KEEP THE DOT THERE OR PUT THE DOT THERE, UM, THEY, THEY'RE, THEY WILL BE REQUIRED TO PAY ROYALTIES FOR THE COMPONENTS OVER STATE ON BOTTOM. RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. HOW YOU ALL DECIDE TO PROCEED WITH THE INTERTIDAL COMPONENT IS UP TO YOU ALL. BUT THE REAL WORLD, HE HAS TO SATISFY BOTH BECAUSE YOU OVERSEE IT IS OUR SO AND THAT'S, SO WE GOTTA MAKE IT, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICATIONS TOO BECAUSE YOU OVERSEEING OURS. BUT YOU DO, YOU HAVE THE PURVIEW OVER THE INTERTIDAL AREA. I I, ALL I CAN REALLY SPEAK TO IS ANYTHING CHANNEL WORD OF NEMO WATER, HE'LL BE PAYING SURE. ROYALTIES AND THE REST IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY. BUT WE WILL GET, BUT WE HAVE TWO OVER OVERLAP. AND IT'S JUST LIKE YOU'RE SAYING THE COUNTIES IS, IT'S, EVEN THOUGH IT'S FOUR PEOPLE THERE, IT'S STILL PRIVATE BECAUSE IT'S NOT PUBLIC. IT'S ONLY FOR THOSE FOUR PEOPLE. I MEAN, IF WE DETERMINE IF, IF WE USE THE DEFINITION OF PRIVATE AS NON-PUBLIC OR NON-COMMERCIAL, THEN MR. BRITON WOULD EITHER OWE US AN AMENDED JPA OR TAKE THIS DISPUTED SECTION OUT TO BE IN COMPLIANCE. BUT THE COUNTY IS IN THE STATE. IT'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. WELL, REGARDLESS OF THE DEFINITION, HE OWES US AN AMENDED JPA THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S OR OR TAKE OR TAKE IT OUT ONE OR THE OTHER. IT JUST, IT, IF WE TAKE THE MORE PERMISSIVE DEFINITION, WHEN HE FILES THE JPA, HE MAY BE EXEMPT OR, OR, OR HE WOULD BE EXEMPT UNDER THE PERMIT. UNDER COUNTY BUT NOT ON THE STATE. IF WE USE THE MORE PERMISSIVE DEFINITION, YES, MM-HMM . THE COUNTY HAS THE MORE PERMISSIVE AND THE STATE HAS THE MORE AS IT'S TWO DIFFERENT, IT'S TWO DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS THAT TOTALLY NO, MY UNDERSTANDING OR WHAT BMRC HASS EXPLAINED TO ME IS DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS DEAL WITH THIS IN DIFFERENT WAYS. THAT, THAT IT GOES BACK AND FORTH. YOU, THERE'S NOT, IT IT IT'S UP TO THE LOCAL BOARD TO DETERMINE HOW TO HANDLE THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION WITH THAT DEFINITION. BE THE WAY HE NEEDS TO PA GUESS IT'S A FACT. THAT'S CORRECT. YES. SO THAT, THAT WILL COME FIRST. THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING READY TO SAY. NO MATTER WHAT OCCURS, JPA WILL HAVE TO HAPPEN PRIOR. AND BMRC HAS ALREADY ASKED FOR THE REVISED JPA. WE DISCUSSED IT ON SITE. I TOLD HIM, OR WE TOLD HIM IF HE, HE COULD APPLY TO RETAIN WHAT HE'S CONSTRUCTED MM-HMM . THAT'S WITHIN HIS, HIS RIGHT. UM, OR PULL IT OUT FROM OR PULL IT OUT AND TO WHAT TO RECEIVE, WAIT TO GET HIS PERMIT THAT HE HAD ALREADY BEEN, YOU KNOW, HAD ALREADY APPLIED FOR AND WAS WAITING ON MM-HMM . UM, WE SUBMITTED A PRETTY SUBSTANTIAL ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REQUEST THAT WE NEVER RES RECEIVED A RESPONSE TO. 'CAUSE THE APPLICATION WAS, IT WAS VERY INCOMPLETE. UM, BUT IT'S JUNIORS. THAT'S . YEAH. OKAY. SO I GUESS THE QUESTION I HAVE, THIS IS A VIOLATION BY OUR COUNTY WETLANDS BOARD, BUT IS IT A VIOLATION IN REGARDS TO THE VMRC OR THE YES IT IS. OKAY. WE'RE GONNA SUBMIT . THE OTHER THING WE'VE GOTTA LOOK AT, NO MATTER HOW THIS PLAYS OUT IS WHAT HAS NOT BEEN WHAT HAS BEEN BUILT, BUT NOT ON THE JPA. IT'S A SHADING ISSUE. IT'S NOT A LOSS OF WETLANDS FOR US. WE'VE GOTTA KEEP THAT IN MIND [00:25:01] TOO. YES. SHADY MM-HMM . SINCE THERE'S NO VEGETATION OVER THERE. YEAH, I TOOK A LOOK AT THOSE BOARDS. THOSE BOARDS LOOK LIKE THEY'RE VERY TIGHT. I DON'T KNOW, I'M MAYBE JUST AN ANGLE OF THE PHOTO. OKAY. MAYBE, PROBABLY JUST AN ANGLE OF THE PHOTO. I'M SURE YOU PUT A HALF INCH. I DO NOT REMEMBER SEEING ANYTHING UNUSUAL. SO AT THIS POINT WE'RE JUST, WE'RE IN LIMBO UNTIL WE GET A JPA OR HE REMOVES IT. IS THAT CORRECT? UM, I, I WAS JUST GONNA SUGGEST IF HE DIDN'T EITHER, THEN I WOULD BRING HIM BACK IN FRONT OF THE BOARD. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. UM, BUT ONCE WE GET WORD OF EITHER ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS HE DOES TO DETERMINE THAT HANDLE. OKAY. AND IF HE COMES THROUGH WITH THE JPA, THEN WE'LL DO OUR NORMAL DUE DILIGENCE. IS THAT THE WAY IT WORKS? YES, EXACTLY. YES, EXACTLY. OKAY. AS FAR AS SPACING, UH, TEACH ME, THAT'S HIS ISSUE. IS IT NOT? IF HE JAMS THE BOARDS AND THEY COME UP, UH, WHAT'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH YOU AND ME? HE'S GOTTA PAY SHAKING ANYWAY, SO THAT'S RIGHT. EXACTLY. SO ANYWAY, WE WILL WAIT TO HEAR FROM HIM. WE KNOW I'VE, I'VE KNOWN HIM A LONG TIME. UH, SO IF WE GET A JPA, WE'LL START. IF NOT, WE ARE GONNA GO, UH, WE'RE GONNA DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, JUST LIKE WE HAVE WITH THE AVAIL EVERY CASE. OKAY. UH, ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION, MR. WATSON ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT? ALRIGHT, THANK YOU SIR. UM, SO NOW WE HAVE TWO JPA. UM, CORRECT. I I WOULD SAY THAT THE ASK QJPA IS I BELIEVE WILL BE QUITE BRIEF BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN YES SIR. A CHANGE IN THE PLAN. YES SIR. OR A PROPOSED CHANGE IN THE PLAN. UM, SO WE COULD TAKE THAT ONE FIRST AND MAYBE DISPOSE OF IT PRETTY QUICKLY WOULD SUIT ME. IF IT'S ALRIGHT WITH EVERYONE TO SWITCH 'EM AROUND, WE HAVE, UH, A JPA THAT WON'T TAKE VERY LONG. UH, ANYONE HAVE AN ISSUE? ALRIGHT, IT'S DONE. SO THIS IS A REPLACEMENT OF A VERY OLD BULKHEAD. UH, THE PROPOSAL WAS TO MAKE A TWO FEET CHANNEL WORD, UM, BUT THE TWO FEET CHANNEL WARD WOULD NECESSARILY INVOLVE OF GETTING RID OF 28 SQUARE FEET OF VEGETATIVE WETLANDS AND EIGHT SQUARE FEET OF NON VEGETATIVE WETLANDS. AND I'VE TALKED TO MR. GOVERNOR, THE AGENT, AND, UM, ABOUT THAT ISSUE. HE HERE IS WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY PROPOSED, UH, THAT WOULD HAVE, UM, UH, AFFECTED THOSE WETLANDS. UM, AND WHAT IS NOW BEING PROPOSED IS THAT THE BULKHEAD BE TWO FEET CHANNEL WORD UNTIL IT GETS INTO THE AREA OF THE WETLANDS AND THEN GO BACK IN LINE SUCH THAT NO WETLANDS WOULD BE AFFECTED. UM, HERE IS THE AERIAL OF THE PROPERTY FROM 2025. THIS IS THE AREA WHERE THE WETLANDS ARE ON THE CHANNEL WARD SIDE OF THE BULKHEAD. AND THIS IS 18, 19 YEARS AGO. THERE WERE A LOT MORE WETLANDS AROUND THAT DOCK. AND HERE PICTURES FROM THE DOCK. LOOKING BACK AT THE HOUSE, THIS WAS KIND OF A HIGHER TIDE. YOU CAN SEE THE WETLANDS, UH, THERE IN THE MIDDLE LEFT HAND PORTION OF THE PICTURE. HERE'S IT LOOKING OUT TOWARDS, I GUESS OUT TOWARDS THE CHESAPEAKE BAY. AND HERE ARE PICTURES MR. ATOR PROVIDED US SHOWING THE WETLANDS A LITTLE BETTER THAN THE EXISTING BULKHEAD OF THE CONDITION. SO, UM, I'LL LET MR. ATOR SPEAK TO THIS, BUT I THINK TECHNICALLY, UM, IF THE BULKHEAD IS, UH, PROPOSED OR, OR THE PROPOSED BULKHEAD NOW WOULD NOT EVEN BE JURISDICTIONAL FOR THE BOARD. BUT SINCE WE'RE HERE, WE CAN HEAR MR. GOVERNOR'S, UH, PROPOSED PLAN AND, UH, DETERMINE THAT AND, AND DEAL WITH THIS JPA. AGREED. IF YOU'LL ALLOW ME, PLEASE, UH, THIS FOR THE RECORD, THIS IS JPA 2 0 2 5 2 5 2 6. MR. BENJAMIN ASKEW UNDER HILL POINT, THAT'S OFF CASH. UH, TAX MAP IS NINE ZERO A TWO. SO, UM, IF YOU'LL ALLOW, LET'S TALK TO MR. ATOR AND LET HIM . UH, WOULD YOU PLEASE, UH, STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD? YES, CHRIS ATOR. THANK YOU. MAY I SWEAR YOU IN, SIR? AND MYLA? YES. UH, DO YOU AFFIRM OR SWEAR YOU'LL TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, [00:30:01] NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. WHY DON'T YOU TELL US WHAT'S GOING ON? WELL, JUST GENERALLY THE OVERVIEW, KINDA LIKE THE OVERVIEW ON, ON THERE. SO, SO GENERALLY SPEAKING, UM, THE ASK ASKEWS, UH, HAVE DETERMINED THAT THE, THE BULKHEAD BUILT IN THE SEVENTIES. UH, IT'S A TIMBER BULKHEAD. IT'S EXCEEDED ITS USEFUL LIFE. UH, THIS IS A, UM, SIGNIFICANT PROJECT FOR THEM, UM, THAT THEY'RE READY TO DO IT NOW TO AVOID THE POTENTIAL FAILURE, UH, AND LOSS OF SEDIMENT, UH, EVENTUALLY INTO THE BAY. IT'S APPROXIMATELY 200 FEET FROM ONE END TO THE OTHER. UM, IT'S FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD IN THAT THE EASTERNS, THIS IS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF PUNGA TEA CREEK, BUT THE EASTERN SIDE OF THIS, FROM THE DOCK TO THE EAST, THE TIDE RISES AND FALLS ON THE BULKHEAD THERE. UM, FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD ON THAT SIDE. IT'S THE LITTLE WESTERN PIECE. UM, THAT'S A CONCERN. AND WHERE THE POTENTIAL WETLAND IMPACTS, UM, ARE LOCATED, UH, INITIAL DESIGN AND CONSULTATION WITH THE PROPERTY OWNER. AND WE HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE, WE HAVE MS. ASKEW HERE TODAY, UM, DISCUSSION WITH THEM. THE IDEA IN EVALUATING THIS PROJECT, UH, LIVING SHORELINE WAS NOT AN OPTION. IT'S, IT'S A, IT'S A SIGNIFICANT FETCH OUT ACROSS THE BAY, UH, 18 OR 20 MILES. UM, WE LOOKED AT REPLACING, INITIALLY REPLACING THE BULKHEAD IN THE SAME PLACE. BUT AS YOU KNOW, THE POTENTIAL FOR LOSS OF SEDIMENT DURING THAT TYPE OF WORK IS SIGNIFICANT. AND THAT'S WHY WE WENT WITH GOING, UH, TWO FEET CHANNEL WORD. IT IS DIFFICULT TO AVOID, UH, THE IMPACTS TO, UH, WETLANDS, BOTH VEGETATED AND NON VEGETATED. WE HAVE NON VEG UNDER THE EXISTING DOCK, A LITTLE TEMP TO THE EAST, AND THEN A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF WETLANDS, UH, TO THE WEST SIDE THERE. THAT'S WHERE THE DISCUSSION OF POSSIBLY PULLING THAT SECTION BACK AND PUTTING IT IN LINE WITH THE EXISTING WET, UH, BULKHEAD WAS DISCUSSED. ALRIGHT, ANYONE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. ATOR? SO I GUESS WE'RE GONNA SEE REVISED DRAWINGS. YES. IS THAT, IS THAT CORRECT? YES. AND THAT WILL TAKE IT OUT OUTSIDE OF OUR JURISDICTION AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO COME BACK. IS THAT CORRECT? CORRECT. OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. GOVERNOR FOR THE MOMENT? ALRIGHT, WELL I GUESS WE CAN'T REALLY PROJECT THE FUTURE, BUT EVEN BY DOING SO, UH, THAT OTHER, THOSE THAT HAVE MORE EROSION DOWN THE LINE, I'M SURE IN REGARDS TO WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. YEAH, YOU CAN SEE THE ISOLATED HUM ON, ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE DOCK IS ISOLATED, IS SMALL AND IS MOSTLY OUT IN THE WATER. UM, THE AREA ON THE WESTERN SIDE OF THE DOCK IS STARTING TO LOOK AT THE EDGE OF IT IS STARTING TO LOOK VERTICAL AS, AND THE, UM, ORGANIC LAYER STARTING TO SHOW. UM, SO THAT ONE LOOKS LIKE IT'S GOING. UM, BUT ONCE YOU GET AROUND THE CORNER, UH, THOSE WETLANDS THAT ARE UP AGAINST THE RETURN WALL AREN'T PRETTY GOOD SHAPE. I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU, CHRIS, THAT OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE NOT GONNA STOP THE EROSION. YOU MENTIONED THE, TO VARIOUS THINGS, UH, IT WAS, UH, EIGHT TIMES THAT LARGE WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, SO, UH, SO YOU'RE NOT GONNA STOP IT. THE ONLY WAY TO FIX IT IS WITH EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. OKAY. UH, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS FOR THE MOMENT FOR MR. ATOR? ALRIGHT, DON'T GO AWAY. UH, IS THERE ANYONE ELSE? MS. ASKEW, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SPEAK SIR? COME ALONG PLEASE. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE? ALLISON ASKEW. MAY I SWEAR YOU IN? YES, SIR. DO YOU FIRMLY SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? YES, SIR. THANK YOU. GO RIGHT AHEAD MA'AM. I JUST WANTED TO THANK THE, UM, THANK THE BOARD AND THOSE ASSEMBLED HERE TODAY. GO THAT MIC DOWN A LITTLE BIT PLEASE. THANK YOU. I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU ALL FOR, UH, THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TODAY AND, UM, JUST FOR THE, FOR THE, UM, OVERSIGHT THAT YOU'RE GIVING TO THIS PROJECT, MY HUSBAND AND I ARE EXCITED TO CONTINUE WITH IT, UH, HOPEFULLY, UH, IN A FAVORABLE MANNER. AND WE'RE READY TO, TO GET STARTED, UM, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO BE GOOD STEWARDS OF THE LAND AND, UM, HOPEFULLY PROTECT THE PROPERTY THAT WE HAVE. SO THANK YOU. THANK YOU MA'AM. WE APPRECIATE IT. UH, I'M SORRY. UH, ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. ASKEW? THAT'S QUITE ALL RIGHT, MA'AM. UH, ANY QUESTIONS? NO. ALRIGHT. ANY LAST MOMENT QUESTIONS FOR MR. DER? ALRIGHT. UH, EVERYTHING WE HAVE SPOKEN [00:35:01] ABOUT, UH, I NOW, UH, EXCUSE ME, I NEED TO CLOSE THE FLOOR. NO MA'AM. YOU CAN BE SEATED. NEED TO OPEN IT TO PUBLIC COMMENT. NO PUBLIC COMMENT. CLOSE THE FLOOR. LET'S OPEN IT TO BOARD DISCUSSION. I THINK THEY THINK HANK SAID IT ALL. WHEN WE HAVE REVISED DRAWINGS, IT'S GONNA TAKE IT OUT OUR JURISDICTION AND IT'S GONNA BE A, YEAH. SO AT THIS POINT, I GUESS WE KIND OF CONTINUE THIS HEARING UNTIL WE GET THE VISED. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY OPTION AT THIS MOMENT. UH, SO, UH, ANYONE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS WITH REVISED DRAWINGS COMING? I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE A CONTINUANCE. I THINK ONCE, ONCE IT'S DETERMINED THAT IT'S OUT OF OUR JURISDICTION, THEY WON'T HAVE TO COME BACK TO US. UH, COUNTY CAN HANDLE IT FROM THERE. MR. WATSON, CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT? UH, YES, THAT'S, I WOULD, I WAS JUST GONNA ASK IF THE BOARD WOULD JUST MAKE IT CLEAR THAT ONCE IT CAME BACK AND I DETERMINED IT WAS NON-JURISDICTIONAL, THAT IT DID NOT REQUIRE ANY FURTHER ACTION BY THE BOARD. DOES THAT REQUIRE A MOTION, SIR? I WELL WE CAN MAKE A MOTION. YEAH, I THINK, I THINK WE WANNA APPROVE, I THINK WE CAN TO DO THIS HANK PUT ANY MOTION, I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO CONTINUE THE HEARING UNLESS THE REVISED DRAWINGS SHOW THAT IT'S OUTSIDE OF OUR JURISDICTION. I'LL SECOND THAT MOTION FINE. VOTE PLEASE. AYE, AYE. ALRIGHT. UH, THAT IS, UH, IN THE BOOK, UH, WITH THE PROPER REVISED DRAWINGS, UH, THE PERMIT IS APPROVED MA'AM PERMIT IS APPROVED FOR TWO YEARS FROM TODAY'S DATE. ALL PARTIES ARE ADVISED THAT THE FOREGONE TERMINATION GRANTS NO AUTHORITY TO ENCROACH ON THE PROPERTY OF OTHERS. THANK YOU. I THINK THAT TAKES CARE OF THAT. ALRIGHT. ALL RIGHT. OKAY. SO THE ONLY OTHER MATTER WE HAVE IS THE CEDAR ISLAND PROJECT. THAT'S CORRECT. IS, UH, JPA 2024 DASH 2360. UM, NO STRUCTURES ARE PROPOSED. THIS IS FOR THE ELEVATION AND EXTENSION OF THE NATURAL MARSH INTERTIDAL FLAT BEHIND THE ISLAND. UM, BURTON'S BAY IS BEHIND IT, OF COURSE, THE ATLANTIC OCEANS ON THE OTHER SIDE. UM, I DID MAKE A VISIT TO THE ISLAND SOME MONTHS AGO. UH, THE FIRST PLANNED VISIT TO THE ISLAND, UH, REMARKABLY LOW LYING EVEN FOR BAYER ISLAND KIND STRIKES YOU HOW LOW IT IS, UH, WITH OBVIOUSLY A LARGE AREA OF TIDAL WETLANDS BEHIND IT. UM, AS PROPOSED, UH, THE PLAN CALLS FOR A NET GAIN OF 4.69 ACRES OF TIDAL WETLANDS. AND THE BOARD'S JURISDICTION ARE THE TIDAL WETLANDS THAT ARE AFFECTED. HERE IS THE GENERAL AREA OF THE PROJECT. UM, I GUESS THE BEST WAY TO SEE IT IS YOU SEE THE TOWN OF WA CREEK, UH, JUST DO EAST THERE, KIND OF THE MID SOUTH PORTION OF CEDAR ISLAND. AND HERE JUST A FEW, UH, ILLUSTRATIONS FROM THE PROPOSAL THAT I PICKED OUT. JUST I THOUGHT THAT BEST CAPTURED WHAT WAS HAPPENING. YOU CAN SEE THE SOUTHERN TIP OF THE ISLAND AND THEN THE AREA OF THE WETLANDS THAT ARE BEING IMPACTED. AND HERE ARE CLOSEUPS OF BOTH THE NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN SECTION WITH THE COLOR COORDINATION OF WHAT ARE THE NEW PROPOSED, UH, VEGETATED, NON VEGETATED, UH, AND SO FORTH AREAS. THIS IS THE NORTHERN SECTION AND THIS WOULD BE THE SOUTHERN SECTION OF THE PROJECT. AND THESE ARE PICTURES BASICALLY OF, I, I THINK GET TO THE SAME POINT JUST SHOWING WHAT IS GOING TO RESULT, UH, OR THIS IS EXISTING HABITATS AND THEN THE PROPOSED HABITATS. WHAT'S GOING TO RESULT FROM THE PROJECT. AND AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S ADJACENT TO THE BAYLER, THE PUBLIC BAYLER GROUNDS, UH, TO THE WEST. AND HERE ARE HISTORICAL AERIALS FROM THE COUNTY MAPPING SYSTEM. UH, IT'S THIS AREA RIGHT HERE, THAT'S THE PROJECT AREA. THIS IS GOING BACK FROM 2025, WHOOPS, 2021. AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S OBVIOUSLY RETREATING. AND 2009. AND THEN I THINK THE LAST ONE SHOWS WHEN IT WAS BROKEN UP IN 2002. IT'S OBVIOUSLY RECOVERED A GREAT DEAL SINCE THEN. AND HERE ARE PICTURES THAT [00:40:01] I TOOK WHEN WE WERE OUT THERE. THIS IS THE ATLANTIC OCEAN SIDE, OBVIOUSLY. AND THIS IS LOOKING BACK TOWARDS THE MAINLAND FROM, I BELIEVE THE DUNE ON THE, OR THE VERY SMALL DUNE ON THE BEACH IS SHOWING VARIOUS HABITATS ON THE ISLAND. I BELIEVE THAT'S IT. UM, SO THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO PRESENT. I KNOW STANTEC HAS A GOOD DEAL TO PRESENT AND I HAVE A PRESENTATION LOADED UP. CORRECT. UH, FOR THE MOMENT. ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. WATSON? UH, JUST BRIEFLY, WHEN YOU GIVE THE STAFF BACK, UH, I GUESS RECOMMENDATION OR SUMMARY WHEN YOU SAY THINGS, THE PROJECT IS CONSIDERED SELF MITIGATING, THAT'S NOT, YOU'RE JUST REPEATING WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SAID OR YOU, IS THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M GOING. THAT'S AS, THAT'S THE THING THAT WE NEED TO DISCUSS BASICALLY. UM, I WOULD SAY, I MEAN THAT IS ALMOST A WORD FOR WORD QUOTE FROM THE JPA, BUT I WOULD SAY AS PROPOSED, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS IS IN THE JPA. OKAY, VERY GOOD. I JUST WANNA DOUBLE CHECK ON THAT. THANK YOU. ANY OTHER PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS FOR MR. WATSON? HE'LL BE CALLED AGAIN, OF COURSE. ALRIGHT SIR. THANK YOU FOR THE MOMENT, MR. WATSON. UH, IF WE MIGHT MOVE ON, UM, FIRST OF ALL, UH, ANYONE HERE FROM THE NATURE OF CONSERVANCY ITSELF THAT WISHES TO SPEAK? ALRIGHT, UM, MAY I ASK MR. UH, CHUCK ROSALIE? ROSALIE? UH, MR. ROSALIE IS THE SENIOR PRINCIPAL AT, UH, SANTECH. UH, JUST FOR THE RECORD, WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME AND TITLE? OKAY. CHUCK LEY. THANK YOU. SENIOR PRINCIPAL WITH STANTEC 52 89 CENTER STREET, WILLIAMSBURG, VIRGINIA. DO YOU AFFIRM OR SWEAR YOU'LL TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. WHY DON'T YOU TELL US WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN? UM, MR. CHAIRMAN, THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK. UM, I'VE BEEN BEFORE THE BOARD ON A COUPLE OF OCCASIONS, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THE STANTEC NAME IS FAMILIAR TO YOU. UM, I'LL GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND FOR CONTEXT. I GREW UP IN THE NORTHERN NECK, ATTENDED SCHOOL AT VIRGINIA TECH AND JOINED VIMS AS AN INTERN BACK IN THE LATE SEVENTIES, UH, LATER IN THE LATE UH, EIGHTIES, UH, UH, WORKING IN THEIR WETLANDS ADVISORY PROGRAM. UM, JOINED HANK BADGER AND HIS COLLEAGUES AT VMRC IN THE HABITAT MANAGEMENT DIVISION IN THE NINETIES, AND THEN CAME OVER TO CONSULTING, UH, IN THE EARLY OR LATE NINETIES AND HAVE BEEN, UH, IN THE GAME, SO TO SPEAK FOR THE LAST 46 YEARS. UM, STANTEC ACQUIRED THE FIRM I WAS WITH IN 2014, SO IT MAY NOT BE AS FAMILIAR A NAME, BUT WE WERE WILLIAMSBURG ENVIRONMENTAL GROUP. JUST TO HELP PUT A LITTLE CONTEXT BEHIND WHO WE ARE, UM, WITH ME HERE TODAY IS, UH, DR. CHRIS HEIN, COASTAL GEOLOGIST WITH, UH, VIRGINIA INSTITUTE OF MARINE SCIENCE. HIS WIFE AND COLLEAGUE EMILY HEIN, THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF ADVISORY SERVICES AT VIMS. AND MY COLLEAGUE O LAUREN CHART RAN. UM, I AM WHAT'S KNOWN IN THE INDUSTRY AS A, AS A GENERALIST. UM, SO WHEN WE GET, IF YOU GET INTO MORE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS, TECHNICAL QUESTIONS THAT I MAY CALL ON OF THOSE THAT ARE IN ATTENDANCE TO HELP ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS. I ALSO SIT ON THE JAMES CITY COUNTY WETLANDS BOARD HAVE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS. SO I THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE IN THAT CAPACITY. I KNOW, UH, IT'S NOT ALWAYS AS EASY AS IT LOOKS. UM, JUST I THINK, I THINK IT WORKS. THIS ISN'T ADOBE, IS IT NOT WORKING? UM, OH, IT'S A BIG FILE. SO THERE'S, GO DOWN TO THE, UM, OKAY. I MIGHT BE OKAY. ARE YOU, ARE YOU CHANGING OR AM I, I JUST TOUCHED IT AND IT CHANGED. OKAY, THAT'S ME. SO GO STOP THERE. IF WE HOVER IN YOUR MOUSE, DOES IT? UH OH. OKAY. SO THIS IS A TIMELAPSE [00:45:01] SEQUENCE. THE AREA IN GREEN REPRESENTS THE PROJECT LOCATION, BUT THIS, IT'LL DO IT A COUPLE TIMES. IT SHOWS YOU THE BREACH OPENING IN 1993, UH, AND THEN CLOSING AGAIN IN 2006. AND YOU CAN NOTICE THE SHAPE OF THE ISLAND. SO INITIALLY, AND THEN AT OVER TIME AS THE BREACH FORMS THE TITLE DELTA THAT FORMS BEHIND IT AS MATERIAL WASHES THROUGH, AND THEN THE RETREAT OF THE ISLAND IN THIS LOCATION TO ITS, AND THIS IS BACK IN, THIS IS 2002. ANY QUESTIONS ON THIS SLIDE? I JUST WANTED TO, 'CAUSE IT DOES A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF CARRYING YOU THROUGH TIME. YEAH, I LIKE THAT. IT'S NICE. UH, GENTLEMEN, ANY QUESTIONS? UH, JUST SHOUT 'EM OUT AS WE GO ALONG. IF YOU DON'T MIND. ONE QUICK QUESTION JUST TO THE NORTH OF YOUR, YOUR PROPOSAL, DOES THAT STATE MARSHES AND MEADOWLANDS NOW? I BELIEVE IT IS. DO IS DOES THE STATE OWN TO THE LOW WATERMARK IN THAT AREA NOW? I BELIEVE THEY DO. OKAY. SO WE'VE GOT STATE BEACHES. OKAY, NEXT SLIDE PLEASE. ONE MORE. THIS IS JUST KEEP WE GET ANOTHER PIECE. UM, SO A SHOT OF, OF CEDAR ISLAND, HISTORIC SHORELINE LOCATIONS OVER TIME, DATING BACK TO 18, UH, EXCUSE ME. YEAH, 1852. AND THEN THROUGH 1985, THE 1985 SHORELINE WITH THE NEW INLET OPENING UP. AND THIS IS APPROXIMATELY THE LOCATION OF THE PROJECT AREA THAT WE'VE IDENTIFIED OR THE PROJECT, UM, AS WAS NOTED IN THE INITIAL DISCUSSION. AND YOU'LL SEE IN SUBSEQUENT SLIDES, THE AREA BEHIND THE DUNE IN THIS LOCATION IS NOTICEABLY LOWER THAN OTHER AREAS WITHIN THE PROJECT OR WITHIN THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THE ISLAND, THE BREACH THAT FORMED AND THAT IT CLOSED AGAIN IN 2006. AND YOU CAN SEE THE NOTICEABLE CHANGE IN ALIGNMENT OF THE ISLAND AS IT HAS ERODED AND MOVED BACKWARDS AS BARRIER ISLANDS DO. IT'S THE ROLE OF BARRIER ISLANDS, AS WE ALL KNOW. AND IN THIS CASE, YOU CAN SEE THE WASHOVER THAT'S OCCURRING. UM, IT'S NOTABLE BECAUSE IN THIS CASE, THE WASHOVER IS BEING LOST ONCE IT DOES WASH OVER INTO THE LAGOON SYSTEM BEHIND THE ISLAND. AND YOU'LL SEE WHY THAT FACTORS INTO OUR THINKING ON THE PROPOSED PROJECT. AGAIN, JUST COMPARING THE 1985 SHORELINE TO WHAT WE SEE IN 2018 AND THE CHANGES THAT OCCURRED ISLAND IS SHORTENED AND RETREATED, NOTABLY FASTER THAN THE NORTHERN PORTION OF CEDAR ISLAND. SO IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT ERODING AT THE SAME RATE. AND THE CURRENT SHOT, THIS WAS IN JANUARY OR, UH, THAT'S OCTOBER OF 2, 2 0 3 28 23, UM, THE PROJECT LOCATION RIGHT IN THIS AREA, YOU CAN SEE THE ELEVATION CHANGE FROM A, UH, HIGHER MARSH COMMUNITY ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE DUNE AND THEN DROPS DOWN INTO A LOWER MARSH AND SOME NON VEGETATED AREAS ON THE INTERIOR THAT THIS IMAGE DOES A FAIRLY GOOD JOB OF SHOWING THE ELEVATION DIFFERENCES. IT IS HARD BECAUSE IT IS A LARGE AREA, UH, WHEN YOU'RE STANDING OUT ON SITE, UH, AND, YOU KNOW, STANDING ON THE BEACH LOOKING IN THIS DIRECTION, YOU GET A SENSE FOR THE ELEVATION CHANGE. I THOUGHT THIS DID A FAIRLY GOOD JOB OF DOING IT, UH, FROM A OBLIQUE AERIAL, UM, 2006 IMAGE OF THAT SAME AREA. UH, AGAIN, SEEING SOME MORE OVER WASH IN THIS LOCATION. AND THIS IS ESSENTIALLY THIS FEATURE IN THE BACK BACKSIDE OF THE DUNE, UM, [00:50:01] SHORELINE. THIS IS, THIS IS ACTUALLY SUBMERGED LAND OUT HERE. UH, THIS IS THE ACTUAL SHORELINE. SO AS I MENTIONED, THE DIFFERENT RATES OF EROSION BETWEEN THE, THE NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN PORTIONS OF CEDAR ISLAND, YOU KNOW, IN A NORMAL, UM, EVOLUTION OF BARRIER ISLANDS, THE, THE FORESHORE AND DUNE AREAS, DEWEY ROAD AND TEND TO SPILL OVER INTO THE BACK SHORE AREAS OF THE, OF THE ISLAND. AND THEY'RE SUPPORTED BY THAT MARSH SYSTEM, THE HIGHER MARSH SYSTEM. AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THE NORTHERN PORTION OF CEDAR ISLAND, AGAIN, A LITTLE BIT MORE STABLE, EVEN THOUGH IT IS ERODING, IT IS MORE STABLE BECAUSE IT HAS THAT HIGHER MARSH SITUATION IN THE BACKGROUND. WHEREAS IN THE SOUTHERN AREAS, WE TEND TO BE LOSING SEDIMENT DURING THOSE EXTREME EVENTS WHERE YOU HAVE HIGH OVER WASH AND THE MATERIAL JUST IS LOST FROM THE SYSTEM INTO THE LAGOON AND IS NOT SERVED AS A BASIS FOR CONTINUING MARSH GROWTH AND ELEVATION. SO THE THINKING HERE WAS TO, UM, LOOK FOR WHERE THE, UH, POTENTIAL FOR HIGHEST POTENTIAL RATHER FOR, UM, THE, THE NEXT BREACH THAT MIGHT OCCUR. AND ALSO LOOKING AT ELEVATIONS WHERE WE MIGHT SUPPLEMENT THE EXISTING SUBSTRATE TO ELEVATE IT, BUT NOT OUT OF THE TIDAL WETLAND RANGE. STILL KEEPING IT WETLANDS, BUT TAKING IT FROM A LOW MARSH OR INTERTIDAL AREA TO A HIGHER MARSH AREA. SO IT CR ENDED UP CREATING KIND OF THE PURPOSE AND NEED FOR THE PROJECT. AND WE'RE ALSO, UM, TESTING A THEORY HERE ON THE USE OF THIS TYPE OF METHODOLOGY TO ADDRESS SIMILARLY SITUATED BARRIER ISLANDS AND HOW THEY MIGHT RESPOND TO THIS TYPE OF, UH, RESILIENCE PLANNING THAT WE'RE TRYING TO PROMOTE HERE, WHERE THEY CAN RESPOND HOPEFULLY WITH A MORE POSITIVE OUTCOME THAN JUST LOSING THE SEDIMENT INTO THE SYSTEM AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY ERODING COMPLETELY. UM, IN ORDER TO FACILITATE THIS, UM, THIS JUST THE RED LINES JUST REPRESENT ACCESS PATH FROM WATCH PRE, UM, THERE IS A BORROW AREA THAT'S BEEN IDENTIFIED WHEN THIS APPLICATION WAS SUBMITTED. THE BORROW HAS SINCE GROWN OR THE AREA THAT WE WERE LOOKING AT, UH, THE TITLE DELTA HAS GROWN TO THE SOUTHEAST. UM, AND SO YOU SEE THERE IS A, A WAS PROPOSED AT THE TIME, IT'S NOW BEEN ISSUED A, A LEASE FOR THIS NORTHERN PORTION. WE'LL BE ABLE TO MOVE THAT BORROW AREA COMPLETELY OUT OF, UM, THE LEASE AREA. UM, THIS LEASE, OR EXCUSE ME, THIS DELTA IS EMERGING FROM STATE BOTTOM HAS RESULTED STATE PROPERTY AND AS A RESULT IT'S SOMEWHAT OUT OF THE BOARD'S JURISDICTION FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS APPLICATION. BUT I WANTED TO SHOW YOU WHERE IT WAS LOCATED AND THE PATH FOR THE MATERIAL TO TRAVEL TO THE PROJECT SITE. AGAIN, JUST, UH, YOU SAW THIS IMAGE EARLIER WITH PAUL'S PRESENTATION, UM, GRAPHIC, UH, SHOWING THE, UH, LOW VEGETATION, SOME OF THE INTERTIDAL OR NON VEGETATED FLATS, UM, AND THE HIGHER AREAS ASSOCIATED WITH THE PROJECT. AND THEN THE FINAL, UM, COMPONENT, UH, YOU KNOW, WE'VE LEFT SOME OF THESE HIGHER MARSH AREAS OPEN OR FREE OF VEGETATION BY DESIGN TO CREATE, UM, PATHWAYS SO THAT, UH, BIRDS USING THE ISLAND HAVE AN AREA TO, UH, OCCUPY. UH, AND THEN AT, YOU KNOW, BE ABLE TO NAVIGATE THEMSELVES OUT TO THE, TO THE BEACH AREA. UM, SO THAT WAS PART OF THE PLANNING, UH, FOR THIS EFFORT. AND ONE OR TWO FINAL SHOTS JUST SHOWING THE TURBIDITY CURTAIN THAT'S PROPOSED ALONG THE BACKSIDE OF THE ISLAND, UH, TO PREVENT, UH, SEDIMENT LOSS, UH, DURING CONSTRUCTION. UM, AGAIN SHOWING THE RELATIVE ELEVATION OF SEDIMENT THAT WOULD BE APPLIED ZERO TO ONE FEET, UH, ONE TO TWO FEET, AND A LITTLE DEEPER IN OTHER AREAS THAT ARE, THAT HAPPENED TO BE LOWER IN ELEVATION. I WON'T BORE YOU WITH THE CROSS SECTIONS THAT WE DID NOTE THAT I, MR. GICK NOTED THERE'S SOME [00:55:01] TYPOS ON THESE. WE'LL, I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT. WE'LL GET THOSE TAKEN CARE OF. UM, AND THEN THE POST-CONSTRUCTION, LONG-TERM MONITORING, UM, FIVE YEARS OF MONITORING, UH, WITH ANNUAL SURVEYS, BOTH, UH, ELEVATION SURVEYS, WILDLIFE SURVEYS, AND THEN CONDUCTING BENTHIC TRANS OR TRANSECTS, UH, AND BENTHIC SURVEYS, UH, THROUGHOUT THE SITE FOR THAT PERIOD. AND WITH THAT, UH, I'LL ASK IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS. I WILL MAKE A REQUEST OF THE BOARD IF THE BOARD, UM, DEEMS WORTHY OF APPROVING THIS APPLICATION, IF THEY WOULD CONSIDER MAKING THE TERM OF THE PERMIT, UH, AS LONG AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A SHOT AT THIS. THESE PROJECTS DON'T JUST ROLL OFF THE BACK OF A TRUCK. SO SIR, IF IN FACT THAT DOES HAPPEN, UH, TWO YEARS INITIALLY, AND THEN OF COURSE IT CAN BE REAPPLIED FOR, UH, I DON'T THINK WE'VE EVER DONE ONE LONGER THAN TWO YEARS WITHOUT SOMEONE ASKING TO EXTEND IT ANOTHER TWO. BUT I MIGHT BE WRONG. WE MIGHT TALK ABOUT THAT THOUGH. YES, SIR. WE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO. WE'LL, WE'LL COME TO THAT. UM, IS THAT THE END OF YOUR PRESENTATION? THAT IS THE END OF MY PRESENTATION FOR THE MOMENT. IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS OF THE BOARD, I ASKED THE BOARD PLEASE INITIALLY, IF THERE ARE ANY QUESTIONS. HE'S GONNA STAY RIGHT HERE. AND OF COURSE WE'RE ALL GONNA HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT CARRY ON. MR. GETTY. I JUST GOT ONE QUESTION. I MAYBE SHOULDN'T KNOW THIS, BUT I DON'T, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU IN OUR BOARD AND MS. GORMAN IS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HERE TO BASICALLY MAINTAIN VEGETATIVE WETLANDS. IS THERE ANY SIGNIFICANCE BETWEEN LOW MARSH AND HIGH MARSH? IS ONE MORE VALUABLE THAN THE OTHER OR I'D LIKE TO HEAR SOME COMMENTS OR THEY'RE ALL THE SAME IN EVERYBODY'S EYES? I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. AND UM, SIR, ARE YOU IN A POSITION I, I WOULD DEFER THAT TO MS. GORMAN IF SHE'D LIKE TO. ALRIGHT, WE'RE GONNA ANSWER THAT. DEFER IT. UH, FIRST OF ALL, UM, I CAN GIVE YOU MY OPINION, BUT I'LL, UH, PLEASE DON'T, DON'T GO AWAY. NO, SIT DOWN PLEASE. UM, MS. CLAIRE GORMAN, UH, UH, POSSIBLY CAN ANSWER THAT ONE. AND I WAS GONNA ASK YOU FOR YOUR OPINIONS AND QUESTIONS AND SO FORTH AFTER. SO YOU, YOU'RE JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION YOU'RE ASKING IF LOW MARSH AND HIGH MARSH ARE VALUED DIFFERENTLY. EXACTLY. 'CAUSE I'M, I JUST LOOK AT IT ALL AS VEGETATIVE WETLANDS AND I'M JUST, WE'RE GONNA DO SOME SORT OF, I GUESS, TRANSCON CONVERSION OR EXCHANGE TO HOT MORE HIGH MARSH. RIGHT. AND I'M JUST TRYING TO GET A FEEL, IS THIS BENEFICIAL IN TERMS OF THAT CONCEPT? FROM A PERMITTING STANDPOINT? VEGETATED WETLANDS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE LOW MARSH OR HIGH MARSH, ARE TREATED THE SAME FROM AN ECOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE, I WOULD DEFER TO VIMS ON THAT. BUT AS FAR AS THE PERMITTING GOES, IF IT'S VEGETATED WETLANDS, IT'S VEGETATED WETLANDS. VERY GOOD. THANK YOU. UH, DON'T GO AWAY, PLEASE. UH, I, I REALIZED THAT, UM, DR. AND MS. HIN WERE HERE, UH, IF THERE WERE QUESTIONS, AND I THINK THIS IS APPROPRIATE TIME, SIR, UH, TO ANSWER SOME OF THOSE QUESTIONS. AND, UH, THIS LADY AND GENTLEMEN ARE WITH THEMS. MA'AM, WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD? YEP. IT'S EMILY HEIN FROM VIMS. MAY I SWEAR YOU IN, SIR. DO YOU FIRM OR SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. THANK YOU. POSSIBLY SHE CAN ANSWER A QUESTION, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY. SURE. AND UM, JUST A, A QUICK BIT OF CONTEXT ON, ON WHO I AM AND WHY I'M PART OF THIS PROJECT. UM, YOU'VE LIKELY SEEN MY NAME AS THE AUTHOR OF BIMS COMMENTS THAT COME BEFORE YOU. UM, I WORK IN THE OFFICE THAT, UH, EVALUATES PROJECTS WORKS VERY CLOSELY WITH BMRC AND THE WETLANDS BOARDS TO PROVIDE THE BIMS, UM, ADVICE AND, AND OPINIONS ON UH, J P'S. AND SO THAT IS WHY I AM PART OF THIS PROJECT AT VIMS, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE KIND OF DOING THE SAME THING INTERNALLY. UH, HELP ME PUT THIS PROJECT BEFORE YOU. UM, SO AS FAR AS VALUE OF HIGH MARSH VERSUS LOW MARSH, UM, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN REALLY BE QUANTIFIED BECAUSE IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT. IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT FROM A LARVA FISHES PERSPECTIVE, YOU WOULD WANT MORE LOW MARSH BECAUSE THAT'S THE HABITAT YOU WOULD SPEND MORE TIME IN AS A NURSERY AREA. IF YOU ARE A, UM, SALT MARSH SPARROW, YOU WANT MORE HIGH MARSH BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOUR NESTING GROUND IS. SO IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS PROJECT, WE'RE TAKING PROPOSING AN AREA THAT IS MOSTLY LOW [01:00:01] MARSH TO RAISE IT TO BE MOSTLY HIGH MARSH. SO WE'RE PROPOSING THAT IT HAS GREATER VALUE AS TO THE OVERALL SYSTEM AS HIGH MARSH, UM, TO EXIST LONGER, UM, TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL HABITAT FOR A VARIETY OF AVIAN SPECIES THAT NEED IT. AND THERE IS LARGE AREAS OF LOW MARSH IN THE VICINITY. SO, YOU KNOW, HAVING THAT CONVERSION, UM, SHOULDN'T CAUSE A BIG IMPACT IN, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? YEAH, WELL THE THING IS, UH, THIS, UH, AS, UH, MS. GORMET SAID, WE'RE JUST CONCERNED ABOUT VEGETATIVE WETLANDS, BUT MAYBE COULD I SAY THAT HIGH MARSH AREAS WOULD BE MORE PRODUCTIVE OR BE MORE DIVERSE? UH, I'M TRYING TO GET SOME WORDS. I'M TRYING TO, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT. YEAH, NO. UM, THOSE ARE NOT THINGS THAT I COULD SAY. 'CAUSE AGAIN, IT'S VERY MUCH DEPENDS ON WHAT SPECIFIC THING YOU'RE LOOKING AT. ARE YOU LOOKING AT THE FUNGUS LIVING IN THE MARSH OR, YOU KNOW, EVERY IT'S, THERE'S, THERE'S, YOU CAN'T JUST QUANTIFY THEM AS COMPARE THEM THAT WAY. OKAY. THANK YOU. APPRECIATE. WELL, SHE'S AT THE PODIUM. ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? WANT ME? GIMME THE REDNECK VERSION. WHEN YOU'RE DUCK HUNTING HIGH MORE YOU WALK ON IT AND WITH, UH, WITH PAVERS, POOPS. AND IF IT'S A LOW MORRIS TIME, YOU GET TO YOUR DUCK LINE, YOU'RE PROBABLY GONNA BE UP TO YOUR CROTCH. YOU KNOW, I THAT I TOLD YOU I WAS FELL IN THE MUD. I GOT THAT PART. WE HEARD THAT'S THE REDNECK VERSION OF THE HIGH MARSHMALLOW MARSH. I DON'T, I DON'T THINK YOU GET TO SAY CROTCH . OH MY BAD. ALRIGHT, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS WE MAY ASK YOU AGAIN IF YOU DON'T MIND, MA'AM, BUT HAVE YOUR SEAT, UH, SIR CHUCK, IF YOU WOULD. YES SIR. UM, BEFORE WE GET INTO THIS, UM, MAY I ASK A QUESTION? IT APPEARS TO ME THERE ARE FOUR LAND OWNERS, ONE OBVIOUSLY BEING THE NATURE OF CONSERVANCY, THE THREE PRIVATE OWNERS. UH, CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT CORRESPONDENCE, WHAT'S HAPPENED? IF THEY ARE AWARE OF IT, IF THEY AGREE, ET CETERA? I WILL ASK MS. CHARAN WHO HANDLED THAT PORTION OF THE APPLICATION TO ADDRESS THAT QUESTION. YES MA'AM. YOU APPROACH, UM, HAVE, UH, WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD? LAUREN TRAN. HAVE YOU BEEN SWORN IN? NO. UH, DO YOU FIRMLY SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. THANK YOU. UH, WANT ME TO REPEAT THE QUESTION? UM, NO, NO, NO. ALRIGHT. UM, WE HAD EXTENSIVE CORRESPONDENCE WITH ALL OF THE LANDOWNERS. ONE OF THEM ACTUALLY HAD TO GO ALL THE WAY TO THE AGS OFFICE BECAUSE THERE'S SOME, UM, DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE COUNTY RECORDS AND WHO ACTUALLY OWNED THE LAND. UM, BUT AS OF TODAY AND WHY THE PROJECT MOVED FORWARD, WE HAVE SIGN OFF FROM ALL OF THE LANDOWNERS THAT ARE WITHIN THE PROJECT AREA. SO APPROVAL TO DO THE PROJECT, ALL THREE OF THE PRIVATE LANDOWNERS HAVE SIGNED OFF. YES. THAT'S ALL. I WONDER, HAVE THEY GIVEN UP THEIR RIGHTS TO BUILD OR CONSTRUCT? NO, THEY HAVE NOT. SO POTENTIALLY THIS PROJECT MAY END UP BENEFITING THEM STRUCTURALLY. I CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION. OKAY. BUT YOU SEE WHERE I'M HEADING. OH, WE WERE POTENTIALLY GIVING PERMISSION, UM, OR MONEY, SHOULD I SAY NOT US, BUT IN GENERAL MONEY, UH, FOR PRIVATE EN EN ENHANCEMENT. IF I UNDERSTOOD THE QUESTION CORRECTLY THOUGH, WITH THIS PROJECT WETLAND TO WETLAND, THEY WOULD STILL BE FACED WITH GETTING AUTHORIZATION TO BUILD A HOUSE IN WETLAND AS THEY WOULD TODAY. OKAY. OF COURSE. BUT THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN UP, GIVEN UP ANY OF THEIR RIGHTS. THEY DIDN'T GIVE UP THEIR RIGHTS TO DO THAT. NO. SO IF SOMETHING CHANGES THAT THERE AND IT GETS HIGHER BECAUSE THE PROJECT WOULD, WE WE DIDN'T ASK THEM TO REALLY? WELL THAT REALLY WASN'T PART OF OUR, YOU WERE FOCUSED MORE ON DOING THE PROJECT. SURE. WHICH THEY HAVE NOT, BY THE WAY, GENTLEMEN, I'VE ONLY TALKED TO ONE, UH, YOU KNOW, THAT IS, UH, SO THERE'S POTENTIAL OUT THERE IF THIS PROJECT GOES REALLY WELL AND THE WHOLE ISLAND MOVES, GIVES HIGHER ELEVATION THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE A HIGHEST BEING BUILT OUT THERE. AM I OKAY? PLEASE BROACH. UH, THAT'S ONE OF MY CONCERNS IS YEAH, WE'RE TAKING ENLIGHTEN POTENTIALLY. UM, SO EMILY HEIM FROM BIS AGAIN. MM-HMM. AND CLAIRE, I MIGHT HAVE TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT. UM, I BELIEVE THAT THEY, UH, A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO THERE WAS LEGISLATION PROHIBITING BUILDING ON THE BARRIER ISLANDS IN, IN PERPETUITY. DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY GET BIGGER OR WHATNOT, YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT. BUT ON THIS PARTICULAR CEDAR ISLAND PROJECT, UH, STRUCTURES, THIS IS BUILDING STRUCTURE, BUILDING HOUSES AND SUCH, THERE'S, THERE'S A CEDAR ISLAND POLICY THAT WARE C HAS THAT UH, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO MEET SOME QUALIFICATIONS FOR SETBACKS AND SO FORTH. I DO REMEMBER THAT. [01:05:01] I DON'T REMEMBER. YEAH, I THINK THIS WAS FOR ALL OF THE ISLANDS AND I CAN TRY TO LOOK UP THE STATUTE, IF I CAN FIND IT. CLAIRE DOESN'T HAVE IT. OR TC FOLKS HERE MIGHT ALSO KNOW. UH, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THAT FOR A FACT IF, UH, MR. WATSON, IF WE CAN APPROACH THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'LL HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS. YEAH. BUT, UH, IT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD THAT SINCE THE STRUCTURES WERE PUT THERE X NUMBER OF YEARS AGO THAT HAVE NOW WASHED AWAY. MM-HMM . AND, AND ANOTHER QUESTION THAT I HAVE IS, THAT'S IN A, AN AREA THAT HAS WASHED OVER MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES. UH, IF GO BACK TO THE RECORDS OF WHERE LITTLE CEDAR WAS SEPARATED FROM CEDAR ISLAND ITSELF IN THE LATE 18 HUNDREDS, IT'S KIND OF IN THAT GENERAL, GENERAL AREA THERE. SO THERE'S BEEN OVER WASH THERE GOING ON FOR OVER WELL OVER A HUNDRED YEARS NOW. UH, IS THIS GOING TO PROTECT THAT FROM HAPPENING IN THAT? BECAUSE IT, IT SEEMS LIKE THAT AREA HAS A TENDENCY TO WANT TO BREAK, BREAK THERE. IT DOES. WELL, THE, THE GOAL IS TO REDUCE THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT HAPPENED. OKAY. BUT IT'S, UH, HANK IS DEAD ON IT. UH, IT'S, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES IN 125 YEARS, BUT THREE ABSOLUTE FACT JUST READ ABOUT IT. AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT MORE THAN THAT. BUT TO MAKE SURE I HEARD YOU CLEARLY, THIS IS AN ATTEMPT. SO IT DOES NOT OCCUR AGAIN. IS THAT ABOUT WHAT I HEARD? IT'S ATTEMPT TO PROLONG THE LIFE OF SOUTHERN CEDAR ISLAND. OKAY. UM, BECAUSE AS YOU SAW, WHEN IT BECAME DISCONNECTED AND RAPIDLY MOVED, WE'RE TRYING TO ENSURE THAT IT STAYS CONNECTED TO NORTHERN CEDAR ISLAND AND ALLOWS THE SAND, CREATES A PLATFORM THAT ALLOWS THAT SAND TO ACCUMULATE, TO REDUCE THE EROSIVE POTENTIAL. AND, AND THIS IS PART OF TRYING TO PROTECT WATCHER BREAK AS OR AS, UM, IT SERVES MULTIPLE PURPOSES. UM, PROTECTING THAT THE WATCHER BREAK, ALTHOUGH THE, THE WAVE ENERGY WHEN WE MODELED IT, UM, BECAUSE OF THE EXISTING MARSH IN THE LAGOON AREA MM-HMM . DID NOT HIT, UM, WRI. OKAY. UM, BUT IT AGAIN SERVES MULTIPLE POTENTIAL BENEFITS, CO-BENEFITS. THANK YOU. I WANT TO GO BACK A LITTLE BIT, TAKE A, A LITTLE TALK ABOUT THAT DREDGING AREA, THAT SANDBAR YOU'RE GONNA USE. YOU SORT OF INDICATED IT MAY NOT BE IN OUR, UH, JURISDICTION, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, I HAVE THESE MAPS. I THINK IT'S, PART OF IT IS, IT'S, IT'S SLIGHTLY ABOVE MEAN LOW WATER. IT'S IN THE INTERTIDAL AREA, BUT IT IS STATE PROPERTY AND THE APPLICATION, THE APPLICANT IN THIS CASE IS THE COUNTY. AND SO IT THEREFORE DOESN'T REQUIRE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THAT PIECE OF IT TO MOVE FORWARD, IF I'M INTERPRETING IT CORRECTLY. YEAH. I THINK THE ONLY, ONLY REASON IT'S EVEN IN FRONT OF US IS BECAUSE OF THE THREE LANDOWNERS THAT ARE PART OF THIS PROJECT. IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT, IT WOULDN'T EVEN BE IN FRONT OF US AT ALL. UH, BUT IT'S A GOOD POINT THOUGH, IS WHEN YOU BREAK OUT A SECTION OF A PROJECT IS, IS THAT EXEMPT? BUT THE REST ISN'T. I, YOU KNOW, I'D HAVE TO ASK CLAIRE ON THAT ONE. YEAH. MM-HMM . UH, CLAIRE, DO YOU MIND ONE MORE TIME? WE KNEW THIS. OH, IT'S GONNA BE MORE THAN ONE MORE TIME AFTERWARDS. , WE KNEW THIS WAS GONNA HAPPEN. SO, SO HANK IS CORRECT. THIS IS BEING HEARD BY THE BOARD FOR THE PRIVATE PRO, THE WORK ON THE PRIVATE PROPERTY ON THE PRIVATE PARCELS. THAT SHOAL THAT IS NOW INTERTIDAL SINCE IT ACCRETED OVER STATE OWNED LAND OR STATE OWNED SUBMERGED LANDS. IT IS UNDER STATE JURISDICTION AND STATE OWNED. OKAY. YEAH. SO THE SHO THE INTERTIDAL PORTION OF THE SHOUL IS NOT JURISDICTIONAL TO YOU ALL. OKAY. AND WE WILL BE HANDLING THAT. UM, AND, AND IT IS AN EXEMPTION BECAUSE IT IS, UM, GOVERNMENT ACTIVITY ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY, BUT IT IS BEING ADDRESSED AND MANAGED BY THE UNIVERSITY. THAT GOT ME CONCERNED BECAUSE I SAW A PORTION ABOVE MEANING. OKAY. VERY GOOD. THANK YOU SO MUCH. MM-HMM . AND THEY'RE ALSO PART OF THE APPLICATION, THEY PRIVATE OWNERS, ARE THEY PART OF THE APPLICATION? THE PRIVATE OWNERS HAVE? WELL, THEY'VE SIGNED OFF ON THE PROJECT AND THAT'S THE APPLICANT SENSE THAT THEY'VE APPLIED, BUT THEY'VE GIVEN PERMISSION FROM THE PROJECT TO MOVE FORWARD. MM-HMM . HOW, HOW LARGE ARE THE LOTS? ARE THE OWNERSHIP OUT THERE? THESE THREE PROPERTY OWNERS, DO WE KNOW I COULD FILL UP THE TAX. THEY'RE THEY'RE NOT LARGE. THEY, THEY, THEY ARE. IF THIS WAS PART OF THE BENSON SUBDIVISION OR OCEAN CITY SUBDIVISION, THERE'S SOME OF THOSE LOTS. WERE ONLY LIKE A HUNDRED FEET WIDE. YEAH. THEY'RE NOT VERY LARGE AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN YOUR PACKETS, BUT PART OF THE APPLICATION DOES HAVE PARCEL LINES. OKAY. UH, DON'T THINK WE [01:10:01] HAVE IT, BUT WE ALSO, UH, I KNOW THAT THEY ARE VERY NARROW. YEAH. UH, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY FEET, UH, SHE DIDN'T KNOW HOW MANY FEET BEING, BUT THE NATURE CONSERVANCY MAY OWN MORE THAN ONE. I'M SURE THEY OWN MORE THAN ONE LOT TOO. I BELIEVE THEY OWN TWO, TWO LOTS THERE. SO IT'S A COUPLE HUNDRED FEET AND THE OTHER TWO PEOPLE, UH, MAY ONLY HAVE ONE LOT EACH. YEAH. THERE'S UM, IF MY MEMORY SERVE TO ME CORRECT. NATURE CONSERVANCY HAS TWO LOTS. THERE'S A PRIVATE OWNER THAT ALSO HAS TWO LOTS. THEN THERE'S A PRIVATE OWNER THAT HAS ONE LOT. MM-HMM. AND THEY'RE BETA C LOTS. MM-HMM. AND THEY'RE BETA C LOTS. YES. YEAH. OKAY. SO WE'RE ONLY LOOKING IN, IN OUR JURISDICTION THEN, ACCORDING TO WHAT I UNDERSTAND ABOUT OUR JURISDICTION IS MAYBE 400 FEET, 400 FEET WIDE ALL THE WAY THROUGH. IS THAT, I BELIEVE THAT IT'S ONE OF THE FIRST ILLUSTRATIONS IN THE JPA. LIKE IT MIGHT EVEN BE THE FIRST ILLUSTRATION SHOWS THE, UH, HERE IT IS. AH, OKAY. IT'S RIGHT HERE. UH, GOT 'EM. CRO, YOU SEE IT? MM-HMM . YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. I DIDN'T SEE IT UNTIL NOW. PLEASE EXCUSE ME. WHAT'S ABOUT 600, MAYBE 600 FEET WIDE? UH, FIVE LOTS OF TOTAL 600 FEET WIDE. IT LOOKS LIKE SIX LOTS. WHAT I'M, WHAT I'M SEEING ON THE DRAWING, UM, I THINK IT'S A TOTAL OF SIX BECAUSE SOMEBODY HAS TWO. HAS TWO. MM-HMM . MAY I APPROACH? PLEASE, PLEASE. YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S, I GOT IT. YOU'VE GOT IT. I'VE GOT IT. WE'RE GREAT. SO IT TOOK US QUITE A WHILE TO TRACK DOWN WHO OWN THIS PERSON. OH. AND IT WAS, UM, I BELIEVE THE BENSON FAMILY. MM-HMM . OKAY. UM, IT WAS MISLABELED IN THE RECORDS. YES. AND WHEN WE SUBMITTED, WE REALIZED THAT IT WAS NOT CORRECT. WE HIRED A REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY HERE IN MACK TO CHASE THAT DOWN. AND YOU EVENTUALLY DID MM-HMM . UM, SO IF YOU WERE, I JUST WANTED TO CORRECT THE STATEMENT. IF YOU THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS THE ONLY YEAH, I DID YES. PORTION YOU WERE ACTING ON, THAT'S INCORRECT. OKAY. OKAY. SO THE, THE BENSON'S OWNER, A LARGER CHUNK HERE? YES. OKAY. I GOTCHA. ALRIGHT. THANK YOU. AND, AND SHE OR THEY, UH, SIGNED OFF ON ALL OF IT. IS THAT CORRECT MA'AM? ALRIGHT. EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND AT LEAST THAT YEAH. THAT, THAT MY QUESTION, LIKE YOU SAID THAT WHAT YOU READ, THE UH, UH, ANY TIME THAT YOU, YOU READ IT EVERY TIME YOU ARE NOT RIGHT. GO ON THE PROPERTY OF OTHERS, EVEN THOUGH YOU GOT PERMISSION, DO THEY NEED TO BE PART OF THE APPLICATION BECAUSE PROPERTY SUPPORTS BEING DONE ON THEIR, UH, PROPERTY IF THEY SIGN OFF? I CAN'T ANSWER IT. UH, POSSIBLY YOUR RIGHT. DID YOU HEAR THE QUESTION? I DID NOT. THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. OKAY. LIKE HE SAYS, LIKE IT READS AT THE END OF THE OTHER, HE READS AT THE END OF THE APPLICATION THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO AND WORK ON THE PROPERTY OF RIGHTS OF OTHERS. EVEN IF THEY'VE GOT PERMISSION. DO THEY NEED TO BE PART OF THE APPLICATION BECAUSE PROPERTY WORK'S GONNA BE DONE ON THEIR PROPERTY? DO THEY NEED TO BECOME THIS IS PERMISSION, IS PERMISSION FINE WITH IT? OR DO THEY NEED TO BE PART OF THE, UH, APPLICATION? THAT'S MY, THAT'S MY QUESTION. UM, I THINK, SO THE QUESTION IS, EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE SIGNED THE, UH, PERMISSION SLIP, THE PERMISSION SLIP, THEY, THEY ARE NOT CO-APPLICANT. AND YOUR QUESTION IS DO THEY NEED TO BE CORRECT? RIGHT. BECAUSE WORK IS BEING DONE ON THEIR PROPERTY. UM, I BUT IT TELLS YOU NOT TO GO WORK ON THE PROPERTY, YOU KNOW? YEAH, BUT THEY DIDN'T, THEY, UH, WHEN THEY GAVE PERMISSION, DID THEY LOSE THAT? RIGHT. UM, THAT'S MY GENERAL, THEY FOREGO THAT. RIGHT. AT LEAST THAT'S THE WAY THE, UH, REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY, UM, DETER, UH, MADE, UH, AT LEAST ONE OF THESE THAT OWNS THE BULK OF IT. TWO OF 'EM, UH, THAT SHE'S DONE SIGNED. I THAT, I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD. SIGNED OFF. UH, THAT'S IT. SHE PERMITS, SHE, SHE ALLOWS PERMISSION AND THAT'S, THAT'S THE END OF IT AS FAR AS SHE KNOWS AT THIS MOMENT. OKAY. I GUESS THE POINT YOU'RE MAKING IS THAT THESE ARE ADJACENT PROPERTY OWNERS AND THERE'S JUST SIGNING OFF SAYING, OH, YOU CAN WORK ON YOUR PROPERTY BECAUSE IT'S ADJACENT TO MINE. IT'S JUST A, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT WE DO. I DON'T KNOW IF BY, BY SIGNING OFF ON THE A PO PERMISSION THAT IT GIVES YOU PERMISSION [01:15:01] TO COME ON THEIR PROPERTY TO DO THE WORK. SO MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT. MAYBE THEY NEED ME TO, WELL, IT JUST PUT IT IN A, IN A TOTAL DIFFERENT CONTEXT. IN A DIFFERENT WORLD. IF IT'D BE LIKE ME, I, I WANT BALL KID MY PROPERTY JUST SAYING I'M ROLLING IN MONEY AND MY NEIGHBOR DON'T HAVE THE MONEY. UM, I, I GONNA BALL KID YOURS AT THE SAME TIME BECAUSE I'M HAVING THAT, THAT AREA. IF, IF A BALL KID'S, YOURS IS GONNA DO A LOT LESS DAMAGE TO MY PROPERTY. SO DOES HE NEED TO BE A PART OF THE APPLICANT INTO IT OR DOES HE OFF, HEY, YOU GOT PERMISSION TO DO, I'M GO WORK ON MY PROPERTY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING? PERFECTLY. YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? MY FIRST THOUGHT IS, YEAH, I THINK HE HAS TO BE, IN MY MIND, HE HAS TO BE A CO APPLICANT. THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S PUTTING IN A TOTAL DIFFERENT CONTEXT. BUT YOU UNDERSTAND IT BETTER. YEAH. BY SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, I'M GONNA BULKHEAD MINE AND MY NEIGHBORS AND DO I JUST DO ANY MAKING PART OF THE APPLICATION OR IS IT JUST SIGN? I'LL SAY, YEAH, IT'S OKAY IF YOU DO THAT TOO. TECHNICALLY. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. I KNOW THAT AT LEAST THEY THINK YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO DO WHAT YOU WANT. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S, I HAVE A QUESTION FOR CLAIRE ON THAT. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE APPLICANT AND THE, UH, THE LANDOWNER'S SIGNATURES AS A COMPLETED APPLICATION FOR US? I HAVE NO ISSUE SINCE THEY'VE SIGNED OFF ON IT. UM, WE DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH THAT. WHETHER OR NOT THEY NEED TO BE CO-APPLICANT, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE BENEFIT OR NEED WOULD BE, BUT, UM, I'M CERTAINLY NOT AN ATTORNEY SO I CANNOT REALLY SPEAK TO THAT. BUT YES, WE ARE COMFORTABLE WITH THEM AS LONG AS THEY'VE SIGNED OFF AND ARE AWARE OF THE PROJECT AND WHAT WILL BE TAKING PLACE ON THEIR PROPERTY. THAT'S FINE. PAUL, DO WE NEED, UH, AN ATTORNEY TO TELL US THAT? UH, WE DO NOT NEED IT? UM, SO MY ONLY THOUGHT IS I WAS, WELL, I WAS TRYING TO THINK OF OTHER PROJECTS WHERE THIS HAS COME UP BEFORE. I'VE, I DON'T PARTICULARLY REMEMBER ANY, BUT I, YOU KNOW, I, I VIEW THIS AS THEM BEING THE AGENT FOR THE LANDOWNERS WHO HAVE SIGNED PAPERWORK SHOWING THAT THEY ARE, UH, YOU KNOW, WANT THIS TO HAPPEN ON THEIR PROPERTY. UH, SO AS I, I DON'T SEE AN ISSUE WITH IT. UM, BUT UH, I HAVE NOT RESEARCHED IT EITHER, SO. ALRIGHT, SIR. AND, UH, THEY HAVE A LOCAL REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY THAT I KNOW FOR A FACT HAS TALKED TO AT LEAST ONE, AND THEY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO AT THIS POINT. SO WOULD THAT HELP ANSWER ANYONE'S QUESTIONS HERE? UH, IF WE CONTACTED THAT PARTICULAR ATTORNEY AND I, I, I'M FAIRLY COMFORTABLE WITH, WITH WHAT CLAIRE HAD TO SAY, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN MY, HOWEVER LONG I'VE BEEN HERE. WELL, I THINK WE HAVE THE CAVEAT THE END WHEN WE F AND WHEN WE GIVE THE PERMIT CORRECT. THAT WE SAY YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY IN. CORRECT. SO WE WE'RE SORT OF COVERED IN THAT ASPECT. WELL THAT, SO YOU ACTUALLY, WE HAVE TO CHANGE SAYING UNLESS YOU GOT PERMISSION. YEAH. , I MEAN, LIKE I SAID, LET'S GET REALISTIC WITH, WITH THE, IF YOU READ THAT STATEMENT, UH, THAT STATEMENT'S NOT TRUE UNLESS, AND AND THAT'S NOT TRUE UNLESS YOU SAY AT THE END, UNLESS YOU GOT PERMISSION FROM THE LANDOWNER. UH, YEAH. SO WHAT I'M GETTING AT THIS IS NOT JUST A SIMPLE A PO PERMISSION THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY DISCUSSED IN DETAILED AND THEY ARE SIGNED ANOTHER DOCUMENT SUCH THAT THEY ARE OKAY WITH THIS. YEAH. OKAY. GOT IT. OKAY. IF, IF IT, THIS IS NOT AN A PO SIGN. THANK YOU. THERE YOU GO. IF THERE'S YOUR ANSWER, UH, BUT IF WE, IF IT GETS TO THIS, THEN I'M JUST GONNA ADD TWO OR THREE WORDS TO THIS DOCUMENT WITHOUT, WITH PERMISSION AND THAT'LL SOLVE IT IF IT COMES TO THAT. WE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO BOYS AND GIRLS, AND I JUST FOUND THE, UM, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THE PROPERTY FAR AS SPECIFICALLY SAYS I PROVIDE AUTHORIZATION FOR THE PROJECT. IT TAKES PLACE ON SPOON BY ME. UM, THAT SEEMS TO BE FAIRLY A STRAIGHTFORWARD STATEMENT. THAT'S THAT'S VERY GOOD. THANK YOU. WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE SIGNING, IF IT'S AT LEAST WHO I'M, WHO I KNOW ABOUT. ANY QUESTIONS FOR THIS GENTLEMAN BEFORE WE MOVE AHEAD? AND EVERYBODY'S GONNA STAY HERE JUST IN CASE . THANKS. ALRIGHT. UH, SO EXCUSE ME, CHAIRMAN, I HAVE THE, UM, CODE SECTION. OH, I CAN ABSOLUTELY PLEASE. YEAH, THAT'S QUICK. ALL RIGHT. SO HANK AND I WERE EACH HALF RIGHT. , UH, SO IT IS FOR VAC 20 DASH 44 DASH 10 BARRIER ISLAND POLICY. AND IT DOES ALLOW FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF CONSTRUCTION ON THE BARRIER ISLANDS AND SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS CEDAR. UM, HOWEVER, ANY SEX STRUCTURE WOULD HAVE TO BE [01:20:01] APPROVED BY EITHER THIS BOARD OR VMRC. IT'S VMRC BECAUSE RIGHT. YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE, WELL, IF IT WAS ON THE, IF IT ENCROACHED ON THE WETLANDS AND THERE ARE REQUIRED, UM, SETBACKS FROM THE BACK OF THE DUNE AND ALL, AND IN THE CASE OF CEDAR, THE BACK OF THE DUNE IS THE START OF THE WETLAND. SO THERE IS ACTUALLY NO NON DUNE UPLIFT. YEAH. YEAH. THANK YOU FOR THAT. OKAY, THANK YOU. AND I WOULD JUST ADD TO THAT WE ALSO HAVE A BARRIER ISLAND DISTRICT IN OUR ZONING CODE, WHICH HAS ITS OWN SET OF SETBACKS AND DENSITY REQUIREMENTS. OKAY. WELL I THINK, UH, THAT BASICALLY SUMS IT UP, UH, THAT THEY'LL, IF IN FACT IT EVER OCCURS THAT UM, THERE ARE VARIOUS HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH. WE AGREE. ALRIGHT, ANY LAST QUESTIONS FOR ANYONE THAT HAS SPOKEN OR ANYONE THAT'S IN THIS ROOM? I ASKED MR. CHRIS SOMETHING. I'M SORRY. REPEAT IT. I'D LIKE ASK MR. CHRIS SOMETHING. YES, SIR. UH, DR. CHRIS. CHRIS, YOU DIDN'T THINK YOU WERE GONNA GET OUTTA THIS ALLOWED ME NO, I DID NOT. I NEED YOU TO STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD. YEP. DR. CHRISTOPHER HEIN. UH, PROFESSOR VIRGINIA INSTITUTE SCIENCE. MAY I SWEAR YOU AND SIR, DO YOU AFFIRM OR SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. ALL RIGHT. UH, GO AHEAD. I KNOW THAT THIS ISN'T SOMETHING YOU CAN GIMME DEFINITIVE, BUT USING HOW MUCH THE BEACH HAS ROLLED WESTWARD, HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WOULD TAKE THIS BEACH TO ROLL OVER ON THIS PROJECT? SO WE ACTUALLY DID DO THE MATH ON THIS. UM, AND OF COURSE IT DOES DEPEND ON THE CHANGES IN RATE OF SEA LEVEL RISE. IT DEPENDS ON THE STORM IMPACTS THAT OCCUR, BUT THE MATH WE DID WAS WAS 30 TO 40 YEARS. OKAY. THANK BEFORE IT'S ON THE BACKSIDE AND THAT AT CURRENT RATES OF MIGRATION. AND I, AVOCADO SOUNDS JUST CRAZY. I APPRECIATE IT. I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING. EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION AND ANSWER BECAUSE IT'S, I JUST WANNA CLARIFY THAT'S, IF NOTHING'S DONE 30, 40 YEARS, OH NO, THAT'S, THAT'S AT CURRENT RATES OF, OF MIGRATION. THAT'S USING THE PAST TO INFORM WHAT, AND, AND IT, IN THEORY, THE SCIENCE BEHIND THIS IS THIS SHOULD SLOW THE RATE OF MIGRATION BECAUSE YOU RAISE THAT PLATFORM ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE ISLAND NOT LOSING SAND. AND IT'S A TEMPORARY LOSS, RIGHT? I MEAN, YOU GO OUT A HUNDRED YEARS, THAT SAND IS, IS AVAILABLE TO THE SYSTEM 'CAUSE IT GETS EROD EXALTING MOVES. YOU'RE NOT TEMPORARILY LOSING THAT SAND. IT ENDS UP ON THE MARSH AND ALLOWS YOU TO GROW DUNES. SO IT, IT'S A REALIZATION, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S STILL GONNA, EVEN THOUGH IT'S GONNA SLOW THINGS DOWN, THAT IT'S GONNA EVENTUALLY ROLL OVER. I'D BE WORRIED IF THE ISLAND STOPPED MOVING. RIGHT, EXACTLY. AND IT'S GOING TO BE, THERE'S NO, THERE'S NO WAY AROUND THAT. THAT'S CORRECT. BUT YOU BOUGHT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO BUY IS THE 30 YEARS IS THE 30 YEARS CORRECT SIR. AND THANK YOU FOR THAT WHOLE, THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? WELL, JUST WITH THAT KIND OF DR. CHRIS BY DOING THIS PROJECT, IT'S 30 TO 40 YEARS. IF NOTHING'S DONE, IF YOU DO THE PROJECT, I MEAN, IT MIGHT BE A HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER. ARE YOU GOING 50, 60, A HUNDRED? I MEAN, IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN PREDICT? I MEAN, IF YOU DO THIS SORT OF CO MIGRATION OF THE DUNES WITH THE MARSH AS IT MOVES SLOWLY TO THE WESTERN, SO AM I GONNA BE IN FRONT OF YOU GUYS ALL IN 30 YEARS AGAIN, UH, ASKING TO DO THIS? UM, I HOPE SO. DON'T WE ALL? UM, NO, THAT, I MEAN, THAT'S NOT, THE INTENT HERE IS NOT TO SHOW THAT IS NOT TO CONTINUE TO DO THIS AND TO FIND EVERY BIT OF ISLAND THAT'S MIGRATING THAT DOESN'T HAVE MARSH BEHIND IT AND START TO PLUG EVERY HOLE. THERE'S NOT MONEY FOR THAT. I MEAN, UNLESS SOMETHING DRASTIC CHANGES, THE GOAL IS TO SEE IF THIS PREVENTS THAT BREACH THAT YES, IT HAS BREACH, AS WAS MENTIONED BEFORE, AT LEAST THREE TIMES IN THE PAST IF IT COULD BE PREVENTED BECAUSE IT'S BECOMING EVER CLOSER TO, IF IN THE NEXT 30 YEARS IS A MONITORING PROJECT TO SEE IF IT BREACHES OR NOT. AGAIN, IN THAT TIME, BECAUSE IN SOME WAYS IT'S A PILOT PROJECT TO SEE IF THIS IS A, AN APPROACH THAT BUILDS MARSH BUILDS HABITAT, BUILDS CARBON STORAGE, BUILDS, YOU KNOW, BIRD CORRIDORS THAT CAN BE USED IN PLACES LIKE THIS AS WELL, THAT ALSO BREACH REGULARLY THAT DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, BURTON'S BAY IN THE TOWN OF RE BEHIND THEM, BUT PERHAPS HAVE SOMETHING ELSE. SO IT'S, IT SERVES IT. IT'S ONE OF THE MANY PURPOSES HERE. THAT'S MY OTHER THING TOO, YOU THINK YOU'RE THINKING IS THAT WHEN YOU PUT IT THERE, THAT THE BEACH WOULD HEAL BACK FASTER BECAUSE OF THE HEIGHT? 'CAUSE LIKE I SAID, I'LL TELL Y'ALL ON, ON THE , LIKE YOU SAY, UH, UH, IT WAS, UH, SUPERSTORM STANDINGS. IT WAS 14 BEACHES. ONE OF 'EM, YOU COULD HAVE DROVE ANY SIZE BOAT THAT COMES TO THROUGH IT. THAT'S HOW, BUT THEY HEALED BACK BECAUSE OF D TOM CO BECAUSE OF THE HEIGHT OF TOM'S CO. AND THE TIMES COVID THE SAND, IT HEALED BACK FAST. I MEAN, THEY DO IN A, IN [01:25:01] A FEW WEEKS THEY WOULD HEAL BACK AND LIKE I SAID, ONE OF THOSE BREACHES YOU COULD HAVE DROVE AND A SIZE BOAT. THEY WENT THROUGH SHIITE THROUGH IT. WE HAVE CONDUCTED ACTUALLY A FULL MODELING STUDY OF SHIITE, INCLUDING THE ISUS, UM, FOR A TOTALLY DIFFERENT, UH, PROJECT. AND THERE, ONE OF OUR CONCLUSIONS, I ACTUALLY JUST PRESENTED THIS LAST WEEK TO THE TOWN BOARD WAS THAT THERE'S, THAT IS VERY UNLIKELY TO BREACH BECAUSE OF HOW SHALLOW TOWNS CO IS AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A VERY LARGE INLET, UH, NEARBY THAT DIRECTS WATER IN THE PERPENDICULAR DIRECTION TO THOSE LITTLE BREACHES. SO AS YOU SAY, YOU GET EVEN A LITTLE NOR'EASTER AND IT CAN BREACH MULTIPLE TIMES. I'VE STOOD THERE AND WATCHED IT HAPPEN. I'VE WATCHED A RIVER FLOW THROUGH THERE AND IT HEALS. UH, IT DOES HEAL EVERY TIME AS EVIDENCE. THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT SYSTEM. YOU HAD THE LAST BREACH HERE WAS OPEN ALMOST CONTINUOUSLY, NOT QUITE DID CLOSE FOR A SHORT PERIOD BETWEEN 93 AND 2006. UM, HOWEVER THAT SAID, IF THIS APPROACH WERE SUCCESSFUL HERE AND WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT BREACHING IN A PLACE LIKE THE ISUS ATTACHING THE SPIT HOOK ON, ON ACETATE, THIS IS THE KIND OF APPROACH THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED THERE. BUILD OUT THE MARSH ON THE BACKSIDE, THE CHANCES OF BREACHING YOU PROVIDE THE PLATFORM FOR THE, FOR THAT ISUS TO ROLL UP ONTO. SO IT'S ACTUALLY HIGHER THAN THAN ABOUT THE THREE FEET IT IS NOW. AND IT IN THEORY WOULD PRE PREVENT BREACHING. SO THIS IS A STUDY, A CASE TEST FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AS WELL. BUT YOU'RE TAKING THE PROJECT WILL ACTUALLY HEAL, MAKE THE BREACH HEAL BACK FASTER. THIS PROJECT IN THIS CASE, I I IF, IF THE PROJECT, IF PROJECT SUCCESS SCIENTIFICALLY WOULD BE THAT IT DOESN'T BREACH AT ALL. OKAY. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT, THAT THE SAND WOULD BE CAUGHT BY THE BACK MARSH AND IT JUST MAINTAIN ITS HEIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. AND SORT OF ACT AS A BASICALLY A LITTLE WALL. YEP. DIFFERENT BREACHING. IT'S A, IT'S A VOLUME QUESTION. IF YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE A CUBIC YARD OF SAND AND THAT CUBIC YARD GETS, GETS THROWN OVER THE BACKSIDE, IT CAN EITHER END UP IN THE BAY BEHIND IT TO HAVE TO FILL ALL THAT WATER IN THE BAY BEFORE YOU COULD EVEN FORM MARSH. OR IT COULD PERCH UP ON THAT MARSH LIKE WASHOVER DOES. AND THEN IF IT'S THERE UP ON THAT MARSH, DUNES CAN START TO FORM BECAUSE YOU'RE ALREADY AT, UH, SUPER TIDAL LEVELS. I HAVE A HIGHLY THEORETICAL QUESTION AND JUST A CURIOSITY ON MY PART. I'M A SCIENTIST. OKAY. YEAH, YEAH. UH, SO CEDAR ISLAND, PARAMORE, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE BASICALLY OUR OUTSIDE, UH, BARRIER ISLANDS RIGHT NOW IN 200 OR 2000 YEARS. CAN OTHER BARRIER ISLANDS POTENTIALLY FORM EAST OF CEDAR ISLANDS THERE? ANY CHANCE? ARE WE TALKING LONGER TIME IN GEOLOGICAL ASPECTS? THESE ARE BARRIER ISLAND. SO WE'RE, STRANGELY ENOUGH, WE'RE AT A TIME IN GEOLOGIC HISTORY THAT'S FAIRLY RARE THAT WE HAVE BARRIER ISLANDS. THEY HAVE EXISTED BEFORE. A FEW THINGS NEED TO BE IN PLACE FOR BARRIER ISLANDS TO FORM. UH, YOU NEED RISING SEA LEVEL 'CAUSE YOU NEED SOME, SOME WAY TO HAVE WATER BEHIND THE ISLANDS, OR AT LEAST STABLE SEA LEVEL. MM-HMM YOU NEED, UM, YOU NEED SEDIMENT, YOU NEED THE SAND TO BE BUILT UP. YOU NEED THE WAVE ENERGY TO PILE THAT SAND INTO PLACE. WE'VE HAD BARRIER ISLANDS HERE MANY TIMES BEFORE. THE LAND THAT WE'RE, THAT WE'RE ON RIGHT THIS MOMENT IS A FORMER BARRIER ISLAND. AND OVER TIME, THAT'S THIS ONE SITTING HERE IS, I WANNA SAY AROUND A HUNDRED THOUSAND YEARS OLD. WHAT HAPPENS IS OVER TIME THESE ISLANDS FORM A SEA LEVEL RISES, THEY MIGRATE WARD. AS THESE ISLANDS ARE DOING TODAY, THEY EVENTUALLY WELD TO THE MAINLAND AND THEN THE, THE MAINLAND GROWS AS MORE SAND IS FED THERE. THAT IS HOW THE ENTIRE DAM MARVA PENINSULA HAS FORMED IN THAT EXACT PROCESS. GO OUT A FEW HUNDRED AND AT PAST RATES WE'RE LOOKING ABOUT 400 YEARS. IF YOU, THE PAST IS THE KEY TO THE PRESENT, UM, ACCELERATING RATES, IT'LL BE LESS THAN THAT, BUT IT'S ABOUT 400 YEARS. CEDAR ISLAND WILL START TO WELD TO THE MAINLAND. YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING BEHIND IT. UM, THAT'S, THAT'S JUST THE RATE OF SEA LEVEL RISE AND WHAT BARRIER ISLANDS DO, IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE WITH THAT OCCURRING, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FORM ANOTHER BARRIER ISLAND SEAWARD OF THE EXISTING ONE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T CONCENTRATE WAVE ENERGY AND THAT WAY, NOT WITH THE RATE OF SEA LEVEL RISE THE WAY IT IS. IF SEA LEVEL'S RISING TOO FAST, YOU JUST NEVER GET BARRY ROUNDS POP THEIR HEADS ABOVE WATER. IT NEEDS TO BE RELATIVELY SLOW. ONCE THEY'RE THERE, THEY CAN MAINTAIN AND MOVE, BUT IT TAKES SLOWER RISE FOR THEM TO FORM THESE FORMS. THAT UP TIME WHEN SEA LEVEL RISE WAS APPROXIMATELY A THIRD, ITS CURRENT RATE AND THEY'VE BEEN MIGRATING ON SHORE FOR, UH, LITERALLY 6,000 YEARS SINCE THEN. AND, AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO WITH SEA LEVEL RISE AT THIS RATE, IT'S UNLIKELY ONE FORMS A NEW BARRIER ISLAND EXCEPT BY BREACHING IF YOU WANT TO CALL THAT A NEW ISLAND, LIKE SAY GARTHA ISLAND. THANK YOU. YEAH, APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU SIR. AND THANK YOU FOR THE EDUCATION. VERY INTERESTING. MY STUDENTS NEVER THANK ME. SO . ALRIGHT, UM, LET'S, UM, ASK ONE MORE TIME ABOUT QUESTIONS FROM THE BOARD [01:30:01] FOR ANYONE THAT HAS OR HAS NOT SPOKEN. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE FOR THE MOMENT? ALRIGHT, NOBODY'S GOING AWAY. UM, I ASK IF THERE IS ANYONE ELSE IN THIS ROOM THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR JPI. WOULD YOU PLEASE COME FORWARD? SIR, THIS IS MR. PHILLIP VALIANT VALIANT OYSTER. UH, NAME FOR THE RECORDS PLEASE. UH, PHILLIP GUNNER VALIANT. DO YOU AFFIRM OR SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? YES, SIR. START FROM THE BEGINNING, PLEASE. I KNOW YOU WILL. AND TELL US WHAT YOU DO AND WHERE YOU ARE AND CARRY ON. UH, YEAH, SO I OWN A OYSTER FARM ON THE TOMPKIN BAY. UM, I LIVE ON THE SHORELINE BEHIND THE TOMPKIN ISLAND, WHICH IS APPROXIMATELY A MILE FROM A TOMPKIN ISLAND. THE NEAREST HOME IN THIS PROJECT IS ROUGHLY THREE TO FOUR MILES AWAY. ACTUALLY, KIND OF FUNNY TO THINK ABOUT. I AM THE CLOSEST SHORELINE OWNER TO ANY BREACH IN THE LAST 50 YEARS ON ANY OF THE BARRIER ISLANDS IN THE COUNTY. I MEAN, I MIGHT BE OFF, BUT IF I DIG INTO IT, THAT'S WHERE I AM. UM, SO MY INITIAL REACTION TO THIS PROJECT WAS THAT THE DESCRIPTIONS DON'T REALLY MATCH THE SITE TODAY. UM, SIMPLY PUT, THE ELEVATION AND VEGETATION HAS GROWN EVERY YEAR SINCE THE BREACH. UM, IF YOU KIND OF LOOK AT THE TIMELINE, IT SHOWS IT GETTING GREENER AND GREENER. SO KIND OF WITH THAT INTEREST, I TOOK IT UPON MYSELF TO KIND OF GET SOME INPUT BEYOND MYSELF. I, I TRUST THESE ISLANDS ABILITY TO HEAL THEMSELF. YOU KNOW, THESE BREACHES HAPPEN, THEY PUSH SEDIMENT IN AND THEN KIND OF WIND AND WAVE FORCES SORT OF BUILD IT BACK UP ON THE BACKSIDE AND IT BECOMES VEGETATED. THERE WAS A VERY SIMILAR BREACH ON THE NORTH END OF A TOMPKIN THAT CLOSED, UH, I BELIEVE 96 AND HAS BEEN CLOSED EVER SINCE. SO, YOU KNOW, FOR THIS PROJECT TO SAY IT CLOSED THE BREACH AND IT DIDN'T REOPEN AGAIN, I QUESTIONED THE VALIDITY OF THAT BEING. THE PROJECT'S GOAL AS A SIMILAR BREACH HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR A LONGER TIME. THAT WAS OPEN FOR A SIMILAR AMOUNT OF TIME. UM, SO IN MY PURSUIT OF GAINING MORE KNOWLEDGE ON THIS, UH, I FIRST WENT TO, UM, THE RECENTLY RETIRED DIRECTOR OF THE VIMS WATCHER PRE LAB, WHO'S, UH, WAS NICE ENOUGH TO TAKE ME OUT. AND I WILL SAY DR. HEIN, YOU KNOW, IMMEDIATELY UPON REACHING OUT TO HIM, ALSO GOT IN THE CAR, WENT OUT TO THE ISLAND WITH ME. SO I'M VERY HAPPY WITH THE PROCESS OF JUST BEING AN INFORMED CITIZEN. UM, I WANT TO READ A STATEMENT FROM DR. SCHNEIDER'S LETTER. UH, IT'S VERY SIMPLE. THE EXISTING TOPOGRAPHY, EXTENSIVE VEGETATION AND DEVELOPING OYSTER REEF WOULD RESIST A STORM SURGE BETTER THAN WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED. UM, I THINK WHEN I SEE THIS PROJECT, I SEE A LOT OF FOREGONE CONCLUSIONS AROUND SUCCESS. UM, SIMPLY PUT THE SITE TODAY, WHEN YOU WALK FROM YOUR BOAT TO THE DUNES, IT'S DRY HARD GROUND THE WHOLE WAY YOUR BOAT SKIMS ACROSS THE TOP OF AN EXISTING OYSTER REEF. IT'S DRY GROUND. THERE'S SPATS SET ON THE OYSTERS IN THE INTERTIDAL. UM, SO I THINK FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS BOARD, I'VE KIND OF MADE A QUICK OUTLINE. UM, DEFINITELY BE AROUND FOR QUESTIONS. I'VE KIND OF READ EVERY OUNCE OF CORPS OF ENGINEERS STANTEC CORRESPONDENCE, AND I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE THINGS THAT SORT OF JUMP OUT TO ME AROUND THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS AND THE POTENTIAL FUTURE WETLAND IMPACTS FROM THIS PROJECT. UM, SO GOING BACK TO THE IDEA THAT THIS PROJECT IS SELF MITIGATING, THAT IS BASED ON 7-YEAR-OLD DATA. UM, I'VE BEEN TO THE SITE FIVE TIMES IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS. TWO VIM SCIENTISTS AND A GEOLOGIST WITH A PHD. UM, THERE WILL BE NO GAIN OF 4.69 ACRES OF WETLANDS. THIS IS ALREADY WETLANDS. THIS AREA OF BURTON'S BAY IS A DEVELOPING INTERTIDAL OYSTER REEF. THIS AREA IS NOT SUB AQUEOUS, IT IS WELL ABOVE MEAN LOW WATER. IF YOU WALK FROM THE BACKSIDE OF THAT ISLAND TOWARDS WAA CREEK, YOUR FEET ARE DRY FOR MAYBE 50 TO A HUNDRED YARDS. SO THE AREA TARGETED FOR CREATED WETLANDS IS ALREADY AN IMPORTANT ECOLOGICAL WETLANDS OF AN OYSTER REEF. VERY DENSE BACK COUNTS. I MAP ALL THESE REEFS, THAT REEF WILL BE MARKET SIZE, SUBSTANTIAL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OYSTERS BY OCTOBER OF NEXT YEAR. I SHOULD ALSO ADD THAT THIS REEF IS IN A PUBLIC HARVEST AREA AS DELINEATED BY VMRC. SO THIS PROJECT WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE PUTTING A TURBIDITY CURTAIN AND PUMPING IN SAND SLURRY ON TOP OF A PUBLIC HARVEST GROUND FOR OYSTERS. UM, SO THERE IS NO CHANCE OF NEW WETLANDS CREATED BY THIS PROJECT. IT IS ALREADY VALUABLE WETLANDS. UM, THE APPLICANT RECENTLY STATED THEY WOULD REMOVE THE LIMITED OYSTERS FROM THE AREA IN THE EVENT THEY'RE COVERED IN SAND. THAT WOULD BE ANY EVENT OF [01:35:01] THIS PROJECT. THEY'D BE COVERING THE OYSTERS OR REMOVING THEM. AND I'VE GOTTA DEFER TO VMRC ON IF THAT'S ALLOWED OUTSIDE OF HARVEST. UM, SO NO NEW WETLANDS. UM, REMOVING THE OYSTERS IS AGAINST LIVING SHORELINE PRINCIPLES, I THINK IN EVERY WAY. UH, I RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, FROM THIS HEARING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S QUESTION ABOUT THE DREDGE AREA AND THE JURISDICTION OF THE BOARD. I WON'T SPEAK TO ANY OF THAT, BUT THE DREDGE AREA. UM, AND IT'S APPROXIMATELY 90,000 CUBIC YARDS. AND I KIND OF DID THE MATH JUST FOR REFERENCE. THAT IS ABOUT 3.6 MILLION FIVE GALLON BUCKETS. SO THIS ISN'T, YOU KNOW, A COUPLE PICKUP TRUCKLOADS. THIS IS A SUBSTANTIAL REMOVAL OF MATERIAL FROM AN AREA THAT AS TODAY MANY ACRES OF IT ARE ABOVE MEAN LOW WATER. SO I DON'T KNOW WHOSE JURISDICTION IT'S IN, BUT THIS DREDGE AREA IS BY EVERY DEFINITION SUBSTANTIALLY UNVEGETATED WETLANDS. UM, SO THE DREDGING REMOVAL SEEKS TO REMOVE ONE TO THREE FEET OF SAND, WHICH BY VISUAL INSPECTION AT LOW TIDE WILL BE A FULL CONVERSION OF THAT WETLAND TO SUB AQUEOUS. SO THIS LOSS OF WETLANDS IS NOT FACTORED INTO THE MATH ON THIS BEING A GAIN OF WETLANDS. UH, AND THIS PROJECT BEING SELF MITIGATING. UM, SO THE NATURAL TOPOGRAPHY THERE WHEN YOU WALK, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE ANCHOR YOU BOAT ON THE BACK OF BURTON'S BAY, YOU WALK ACROSS OYSTER REEF AND YOU'RE GREETED BY MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF LOW MARSH PLANTS. UM, DR. SCHNEIDER'S LETTER REALLY REFERENCES WHAT'S ALREADY THERE. LONG STORY SHORT, THERE'S 5-YEAR-OLD CEDAR TREES IN THE PROJECT ZONE. THIS AREA IS GROWING. THERE'S NO TREND TO REVERSE. THERE'S NO, WE CAN'T. IF THE ISLAND'S GROWING IN VEGETATION AND EVERY YEAR, HOW DO WE SAY THIS PROJECT WAS SUCCESSFUL? DID IT, ARE WE GONNA GET INTO IT? INCREASE THE RATE OF GROWTH IN VEGETATION? SIMPLY PUT THAT VISUAL OF THE UNVEGETATED BACK. MARSH IS INACCURATE FOR EVERY AREA OF THIS PROJECT ZONE. EVERY INCH OF THAT SHORELINE IS DEVELOPING INTERTIDAL OYSTER REEF. UM, SO I WANT TO GET INTO THE MARSH HERE AND WHAT I SEE TO BE THE REAL RISK, THIS PROJECT ASSUMED SUCCESS. UM, SO IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, THIS PROJECT PUMPS THE SAND, FILLS THE LOWER LINE AREAS TO DIFFERENT HEIGHTS TO KIND OF GET A CERTAIN ELEVATION THAT THEY THINK THE PLANTS WILL BE SUCCESSFUL. IF YOU GO OUT THERE, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOW AND HIGH MARSH GRASSES, WHEN DR. SCHNEIDER AND I VISITED, IT'S ABOUT THIS MUCH. IT'S NOT 2, 3, 4 FEET, IT'S MAYBE EIGHT INCHES TO A FOOT. AND I WOULD ADD THAT WHEN YOU GET MUCH ABOVE THOSE EIGHT, NINE INCHES, YOU REACH THE BOUNDARY FOR FRAG, WHICH IS IN THE PROJECT AREA. THE APPLICATION DOES NOT DENOTE THAT. I THINK THAT KIND OF SERVES TO SHOW HOW OLD THE DATA IS, UH, FRAG MIGHTY THRIVES IN DISTURBED AREAS. AND THIS PROJECT WILL BE PLACING AT THE LEAST 22 ACRES AT A DEPTH SUFFICIENT TO KILL ALL OF THE EXISTING LOW MARSH. SO IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO FOR THIS PROJECT, WE HAVE DISTURBANCES TO 22 ACRES OF LOW MARSH AND ROUGH BACK OF ENVELOPE MATH, MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF GRASSES. IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT MUD. THERE'S A COUPLE AREAS WHERE YOU MIGHT SINK IN. MY FATHER FELL VICTIM TO IT, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU COULD HAVE A HUNDRED DOGS OUT THERE RUNNING FULL SPEED IN SANDY SOLID GROUND. IT IS DRY, IT IS, YOU KNOW, INFREQUENTLY FLOODED. IT IS NOT A RAPIDLY ERODING PILE OF MUD BY ANY STRETCH. SO IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, THE CILIARY DEPTH WILL BE BETWEEN ONE TO FOUR FEET. THIS WILL CAUSE COMPLETE MORTALITY AND UNKNOWN RECOVERY TIME OF THE EXISTING MARSH. THIS COULD POTENTIALLY BE MITIGATED BY FUTURE PLANTINGS, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THE PROPOSED PLANTINGS ARE APPROXIMATELY A 90% DECREASE IN VEGETATION AMOUNT PER SQUARE METER. UM, PROPOSED ROUGHLY A HUNDRED THOUSAND LOW MARSH PLANTINGS, 500,000 HIGH MARSH PLANTINGS AND SOME MIXED UPLAND THINGS. THERE'S MILLIONS OF GRASSES OUT THERE NOW UNTIL THOSE PLANTS COLONIZE FULLY, WHICH IS STILL UP FOR DEBATE. MASSIVE LOSS OF INDIVIDUAL GRASSES THERE. AND THESE ARE TALL, MATURE, LOW MARSH SPARTINA GRASSES TO BE PLANTED WITH NURSERY PLUGS. SO IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, THE SAND IS PUMPED IN AND IN THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS QUESTIONING, THEY NOTED THAT THIS AREA MIGHT BE NOT PLANTED FOR UP TO A YEAR. UM, SO ESSENTIALLY THERE'S, IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, THERE'S UP TO A YEAR OF UNSECURED, MASSIVE AMOUNT OF STAND AT A DEPTH THAT WILL BE KILLING THE LOW MARSH. UM, A 2016 VIM STUDY CALLED OPTIMAL HURRICANE OVER WASH THICKNESS FOR MAXIMIZING MARSH RESILIENCE TO SEA LEVEL RISE FOUND THAT BURIAL GREATER THAN OR EQUAL TO [01:40:01] 30 CENTIMETERS RESULTED IN MORTALITY AND NO RECOVERY. 50 CENTIMETERS, 1.64 FEET. SORT OF THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF COVERAGE PROPOSED BY THIS PROJECT ARE A MULTI DECAL 20 TO 100 YEAR OVER WASH EVENT. SO THIS PROJECT IS SEEKING TO FLOOD AN AREA THAT IS GROWING WITH A 22 100 YEAR STORMS AMOUNT OF SAND. THERE IS NO SCIENCE THAT CAN CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT WILL KILL EVERY INCH OF LOW MARSH THAT IT IS PUT ON TOP OF. SO THAT IS OUR BEST CASE SCENARIO, THAT BURIAL CAN ALSO LEAD TO PLANT MORTALITY AND DECADES LONG IN RECOVERY. THESE ARE THE VIM STUDIES WORDS, NOT MINE. I JUST KNOW WHAT I SEE. MY PARENTS LIVE NEXT DOOR. I TRUST THESE ISLANDS IN THEIR NATURAL STATE TO KIND OF PROTECT US UNTIL, YOU KNOW, OUR DAY IS THERE. AND BY THE MATH OF THIS PROJECT AT, YOU KNOW, THE 18 FEET A YEAR, THAT ISLAND IS GONNA REACH ONE HOMEOWNER'S HOME. IN 1000 YEARS THAT HOMEOWNER DID NOT ASK FOR THIS PROJECT AND THERE IS NO QUANTIFIABLE CHANGE TO THEIR SHORELINE IN THE ENTIRE YEAR, THE BREACH WAS OPEN. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SHORELINE ON ME, TOMPKIN BAY AS WELL, 10 YEARS BEHIND AN OPEN BREACH CROPS PLANTED EVERY YEAR UP TO THE BOUNDARY. THESE BREACHES DO NOT LEAD IN FLOODING. THEY DEPOSIT SEDIMENT IN THERE THAT BUILDS UP THE BACK MARY BARSCH. SO I WANT TO MOVE TO THE WORST CASE SCENARIO FOR THIS PROJECT. A FULL LOSS OF 22.73 VEGETATED WETLANDS CONVERTED TO AN UNVEGETATED PILE OF DREDGE SPOILS IN A RECENT VIMS LETTER, THE ADVISORY OFFICE STATED THAT OUR COLLECTIVE CONCLUSION IS THAT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS ONE IN WHICH THE PLANTS FAIL TO BECOME ESTABLISHED AND STABILIZE THE SAND. THE SAME SITUATION THAT IS LIKELY TO OCCUR DURING A NATURAL OVER WASH EVENT. UM, I'M GONNA TAKE A LITTLE WHILE ON THIS ONE BECAUSE THERE'S A COUPLE PARTS TO IT THAT I FIND JUST GENERALLY UNTRUE PER THE SCIENCE. UM, KEVIN, CAN WE HAVE A ONE MINUTE RECESS? YES. UH, SIR, YOU GET ALL THE TIME YOU WANT. OKAY. UH, IF WE MIGHT ASK FOR A FIVE MINUTE RECESS FOR THE MOMENT. UH, DON'T LOSE YOUR TRAIN OF THOUGHT. SOUNDS GOOD. UH, LET'S GO. YEP. GENERAL. THANK YOU. WE ALL OKAY, WE'RE BACK AFTER A FIVE MINUTE RECESS. WE HAVE MR. PHILLIP VALIANT. UH, YEAH, CONTINUE ON PLEASE. YEAH, I APPRECIATE THE RECESS. I DON'T DO ENOUGH PUBLIC SPEAKING. I NEED TO TAKE A BREATH THERE. . UM, YEAH, SO I WAS SAYING IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, THE DEPTHS OF THIS COVERAGE WILL BE A HUNDRED PERCENT LOSS OF BY THE MATH HERE, 22.73 ACRES OF VEGETATED LOW MARSH. UM, IF WE MOVE TO THE WORST CASE SCENARIO, THIS IS ONE THAT THE PLANTED PLANTS FAIL TO COLONIZE THE AREA. UM, IT'S HARD TO JUDGE WHETHER OR NOT THIS PLAN WILL BE GOOD BECAUSE THE CONTRACTOR HAS NOT BEEN NAMED YET. THE EQUIPMENT HASN'T BEEN NAMED YET, BUT YOU COULD THEY SAY THE PLANTS COME WITH A ONE YEAR WARRANTY. SO I THINK THE APPLICANT STATES THAT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS THIS PILE OF DREDGE SPOILS, UH, HAS KILLED THE LOW MARSH AND HAS FAILED TO BE RE-VEGETATED BY THE PLANTED PLANTS. UM, I WOULD ADD TO THAT THE ACTUAL WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A REAL OVER WASH WHILE THE LOW MARSH IS DEAD AND UNVEGETATED. UM, SO I THINK, UH, YOU KNOW, READ, READ THE APPLICANT'S STATEMENT EXACTLY. YOU KNOW, OUR COLLECTIVE CONCLUSION IS THAT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS ONE IN WHICH THE PLANTS FAIL TO BECOME ESTABLISHED AND STABILIZED THE SAND. UM, THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS KIND OF DUG INTO THIS POINT A BIT. THERE'S NO ADAPTIVE MANAGEMENT PLAN PROVIDED. THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS WAS SAYING, UM, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO OUTLINE YOUR GOALS FOR SUCCESS AND SHOULD THE PROJECT NOT MEET THE STATED CRITERIA OR SUCCESS HAVE PLANS TO ADDRESS THAT AND INCLUDING, UH, COMPENSATORY MITIGATION IF NECESSARY. SO THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS HAS ALREADY SORT OF JUMPED ON THE FACT THAT THIS PROJECT HAS NO PLAN FOR IF THE AREA IS CONVERTED FROM VEGETATED LOW MARSH TO UNVEGETATED DREDGE SPOILS. UM, AND THE APPLICANT'S REPLY TO THAT QUESTION FROM THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS, UH, ABOUT COMPENSATORY MITIGATION WAS AS SUCH WHILE THE APPLICANTS RESPECT THE CORPS'S CONCERN FOR LONG-TERM MAINTENANCE OF THE PROJECT SITE, THAT APPROACH OUTSIDE OF THE INITIAL POST-CONSTRUCTION MONITORING PHASE IS IMPRACTICAL DUE TO FUNDING CONSTRAINTS. UM, SO THE APPLICANT DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FIX THIS IN THE EVENT OF A DOWNGRADE OF ECOLOGICAL FUNCTION. YOU KNOW, THERE'S, WE COULD ALL DEBATE IF LOW MARSH IS BETTER THAN HIGH MARSH, BUT I THINK EVERYONE IN THIS ROOM AGREES THAT AN UNVEGETATED PILE OF SAND IS WORSE THAN ANY SORT OF MARSH AS FAR AS EROSION ENVIRONMENT AND ECOLOGICAL BENEFIT TO THE NATURAL RESOURCES. UM, I ALSO WANNA FOCUS ON [01:45:01] THE WORST CASE SCENARIO, FOLLOWING STATEMENT. THE SAME SITUATION THAT IS LIKELY TO OCCUR IN A NATURAL OVER WASH EVENT. UM, AND I BELIEVE THAT LINE OF THINKING CREATES A VERY DANGEROUS PRECEDENT FOR WETLAND PROTECTIONS. UH, THIS AMOUNT OF OVER WASH IS BY VIMS WORDS, A 20 TO 100 YEAR OVER WASH. UM, THE FACT THAT THAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN A HURRICANE AT SOME POINT IN THE NEXT 20 TO 100 YEARS DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT MANMADE DISTURBANCES KILLED THE EXISTING WETLANDS. UM, THAT'S KIND OF IT. AS FAR AS, UH, PRESENTATION GOES, I ROUGHLY SUMMARIZED THAT IN THE OUTLINE. YOU ALL HAVE, UH, HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. I'VE BEEN TO THE SITE NOW WAY TOO MANY TIMES AND LUCKILY WITH SOME PEOPLE THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, VERY DIFFERING OPINIONS THAN, UH, THE APPLICANTS ON WHAT IS BEST FOR THE AREA AND THE POTENTIAL RISKS FOR THIS PROJECT. THANK YOU, SIR. WE ALL HAVE THIS IN FRONT OF US. UH, HE HAS, UH, HAS SOME YEAH. NEW PICTURES TO BE PASSED AROUND IF NECESSARY. YEAH. UH, THERE WERE TWO OF YOU THAT DIDN'T HAVE EMAILS, SO I ASSUME YOU'VE GOT IT IN ONE FASHION OR THE OTHER JEAN LANE. OKAY. UH, I WOULD ASK, UH, JUST, I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH. MR. ICK, DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. VALIANT? WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION AND YOU DID A VERY GREAT JOB, PUBLIC SPEAKING. APPRECIATE IT. DON'T, DON'T CUT YOURSELF SHORT THERE. UM, NO. I THINK, UH, I, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT LATER, BUT NOT THE MOMENT BECAUSE I LIKE TO DISCUSS MAYBE THE OTHER PROTEST LETTERS A LITTLE BIT MAYBE AND GET SOME RESPONSES THAT WE SAW. I GUESS EVERYBODY GOT THE OTHER PRO, THE OTHER THREE PROTEST LETTERS THEY IN THOSE WERE FROM, UM, A GEOLOGIST AND DR. SCHNEIDER OF BIMS LAB THAT WENT OUT THERE WITH ME AND THEY HERE KIND OF WROTE THOSE. THEY'RE ONLY EVERYBODY IN THEIR REACTION. SO AS FAR AS ANY FLORA AND FAUNA MARSH COVERAGE, DR. SCHNEIDER'S LETTER IS WRITTEN FROM SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, STUDIES THAT EVERY YEAR EXTENSIVELY. DOES ANYONE EXCEPT ME REMEMBER DR. SCHNEIDER VIMS? HE'S RETIRED. HE RETIRED JANUARY ONE. UH, ANYBODY KNOW HIM PERSONALLY? YOU DO OBVIOUSLY AND WEALTH OF INFORMATION, JUST, UH, A HEAD FULL. UH, BUT SO WHAT, UH, IF WE CAN DISCUSS THEM WHEN THE TIME COMES, GEORGE, MR. WARD, UH, ANY QUESTIONS AT THIS MOMENT, MR. VALIANT? NO, I THINK YOU DID A GREAT JOB. AND, UH, AFTER READING THIS THROUGH FIVE, 10 TIMES, UM, I LEARNED A LOT. UM, AND I'M A SIDER, BUT, UH, I LEARNED A LOT AND, UH, I THINK YOU DID A GREAT JOB. UM, I THINK THERE'LL BE QUESTIONS. I THINK ALL OF US HAVE TO AGREE WITH A PORTION NO MATTER WHAT OF WHAT YOU SAID. UH, OBVIOUSLY IF AN ANDREW COMES, IT WON'T BE YOU, IT WON'T BE RIGG, IT'LL BE OUT PAST 13. SO I DON'T THINK WE CAN GET INTO THAT. UH, MR. TAYLOR , THIS OUGHT TO BE RIGHT UP YOUR ALLEY. YOU GOT ANY QUESTIONS? WELL, I THINK, I THINK IT'S A, IT'S AN ADMITTED, UM, EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT. UM, BUT PERSONALLY, UM, I THINK IT HAS THE RIGHT REASONS. WOULD YOU REPEAT THAT SIR? SAYING HAS THE RIGHT REASONS, UHHUH IF IT'S SUCCESSFUL, LIKE YOU SAID, FOR THE PROTECTION. UM, AND LIKE I SAY, I, THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO PULL NO PUNCHES. THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO THROW CURVE BALLS. IT'S, THEY'RE SAYING IT'S EXPERIMENTAL AND, BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS, BUT WHEN YOU'RE TRYING, UM, SEA LEVEL RISES, THE FACT YOU'VE BEEN ON THE WATER, ANYBODY AROUND WORLD, I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL DON'T BELIEVE THAT, BUT THOSE OF US THAT HAVE LIVED IT MM-HMM . AND THINGS LIKE YOU SAY, WE, WE'VE SEEN IT. MM-HMM . ESPECIALLY OLD US OLD GUYS, WE'VE SEEN IT, EXPERIENCED IT. BUT LIKE YOU SAY, I'M NOT BASHING 'EM BECAUSE LIKE YOU SAY, I THINK THEY HAD THE RIGHT FOR TRYING SOMETHING TO SEE IF IT WOULD HELP PROTECT MM-HMM . AND I THINK THAT'S, UM, ALSO, UM, HAS ITS ATTRIBUTES. YEAH. YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING? MM-HMM . SO I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I GET, IT'S PART OF BAIL SURVEY, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? I GET, I GET ALL THAT AND YES, YOU'RE CHANGING AT WETLAND. YOU'RE CHANGING A WETLAND MM-HMM . UH, BUT LIKE YOU SAY, BUT I'M NOT BASHING IT BECAUSE OF THE TRY TO PROTECT FOR THE PROTECTION MM-HMM . AND THAT'S, THAT'S JUST, THAT'S, THAT'S MY OPINION. YEAH. WOULD I BE ABLE TO REPLY? YEAH, [01:50:01] YEAH, YEAH. NO, I, I COMPLETELY AGREE. I THINK EVERYBODY IN THIS ROOM WANTS THE BARRIER ISLANDS AS BIG AND ROBUST AS POSSIBLE, AND EVERYBODY ON TI CAN HAND THEIR HOME DOWN TO THEIR GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GREAT GRANDKID. UM, I THINK WITH THIS PROJECT AS AN EXPERIMENT, I THINK A SCIENCE PROJECT HAS, YOU KNOW, IN HYPOTHESIS AND, YOU KNOW, DO YOUR EXPERIMENT AND YOU READ YOUR CONCLUSION. THIS IS THE WRONG AREA FOR THAT BECAUSE IT IS GROWING CURRENTLY. SO THEY CAN'T SAY WHAT IT FIXED. IF MOTHER NATURE IS ALREADY FIXING IT, IT IS NOT SHALLOWEST EMERGE. THERE'S, THERE'S TREES OUT THERE. AND THEN I'D ASK WITH, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT HOW FEDERAL GRANTS ARE FUNDED, THIS IS ASKING FOR A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF MONEY, YOU KNOW, $20 MILLION. AND I THINK TO PROTECT AN AREA THAT HAS NO EXISTING STRUCTURES ON IT, THERE'S NO QUANTIFIABLE IMPACTS TO THE MAINLAND WHEN THAT BREACH WAS OPEN, THAT GENTLEMAN THERE HAS A LITTLE BULKHEAD, AND HIS SHORELINE IS COMPLETELY THE SAME. HIS CROPS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME EVERY YEAR, EVERY YEAR CORN RIGHT UP TO THE WATERLINE. SO I THINK I ABSOLUTELY AGREE. YOU KNOW, I, I WENT TO DR. HINES TALK IN CHIN FATIGUE A WEEK AGO. YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, COASTAL RESILIENCY IS, IS AS BIG IS THE QUESTION ON EVERYBODY'S MIND. UM, I JUST HAPPEN TO BELIEVE, AND A COUPLE DOCTORS AGREE WITH ME THAT THESE ISLANDS HEAL BETTER LEFT ALONE. I THINK THE LACK OF MANMADE INTERVENTION AND UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES IS WHY THEY ARE SO ROBUST. UH, IF YOU GO UP AND DOWN THE EAST COAST, UH, NEW JERSEY, LONG ISLAND, IT'S A CONSTANT STREAM OF DREDGING PROJECTS. UM, THIS IS SMALL BY SCALE, BUT THERE'S CONTINUED EROSION AT DREDGE SITES ALL THE TIME. NO MATTER WHAT THE DREDGE OPERATOR SAYS, YOU KNOW, IT'S FINE, IT'S STABLE. OH, TWO YEARS LATER, THE DEPTH IS STILL INCREASING. UM, YOU KNOW, THE APPLICANTS HAVE STATED THAT THE OYSTER LEASE NEXT TO THE DREDGING WON'T HAVE ANY IMPACTS. LIKE, I, I DON'T HAVE THE SCIENCE TO SAY THAT, BUT I DON'T WANT TO DREDGE A HUNDRED YARDS FROM MY OYSTER BEDS. AND ADDITIONALLY, THE REASON FOR THIS SITE TO DREDGE FROM WAS THAT THEY EXPECT IT TO INFILL. SO I SAY, WHERE'S THAT MATERIAL COMING FROM? AND IF I'M AN OYSTER FARMER OR A CLAM FARMER IN ANKLE DEEP WATER AND THERE'S A DREDGE HAPPENING A HUNDRED YARDS AWAY, TAKING TWO FEET OF MATERIAL OUT, IF THEY EXPECT IT TO INFILL, IT'S GONNA TAKE THE SAND FROM MY LEASE AND PUT IT THERE. AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN MY FARM THAT WAS ANKLE DEEP AT LOW TIDE BECOMES NECK DEEP AT LOW TIDE OR EVEN WAIST DEEP, DECREASING THE WINDOW OF TIME THAT I HAD TO WORK MY BEDS. UM, SO YOU KNOW, THAT POTENTIAL OF WHERE'S THE MATERIAL GONNA COME FROM IF, IF WE EXPECT THE DELTA TO REGROW, IT'S GOTTA COME FROM SOMEWHERE AND IT MIGHT COME FROM THE OYSTER LEASE RIGHT NEXT TO IT. IT MIGHT COME FROM THE EXPOSED END OF THE ISLAND. AND ADDITIONALLY, YOU KNOW, JUST FOR WETLANDS, I KIND OF DIDN'T TOUCH ON THIS, BUT YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO HYDROLOGY STUDY ON. WE REMOVE THIS SANDBAR, WHICH AT LOW TIDE IT'S THIS HIGH ABOVE THE WATER. WE TAKE THAT OUT, ALL OF THAT WATER IS GOING DIRECTLY TO THE MARSH BEHIND IT. AND THERE'S NO MENTION OF, YOU KNOW, CHANGED HYDROLOGY. UM, THE APPLICANTS HAVE SAID IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL, BUT RESPECTFULLY, THAT'S NOT SCIENCE TO ME. UM, SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, RESPECTFULLY AS AN EXPERIMENT, UH, THIS DOESN'T REALLY HAVE A CRITERIA FOR SUCCESS. SO I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY BEING SPENT AND THE BENEFITS TO ANY LANDOWNERS IN AKIMA COUNTY, I WOULD JUST SUGGEST IT GET PLACED SOMEWHERE WHERE IT MIGHT BUY SOME TIME FOR PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE NOW, UM, NOT TALKING 30, 40 YEAR TIMELINES IN A THOUSAND YEARS UNTIL IT REACHES SHORE. YOU KNOW, THERE'S PEOPLE ON TANGER AND CHIN TI THAT, YOU KNOW, FIGURE OUT WHERE TO PUT SOME SAND TO STOP IT FROM FLOODING A COUPLE TIMES A YEAR. THAT'D BE GREAT. UM, SO THAT'S HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT. AND, AND, AND ON THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I TELL YOU THE SIDE, NOBODY WILL STAND UP TO THE GOVERNMENT MORE THAN I'LL, AND I, AND I GET IT, I PROMISE I GET IT. BUT LIKE YOU SAY, WHEN WE LEASE AER GROUNDS, WE'RE LEASING IT FROM THE STATE MM-HMM . AND, AND THEY, YOU KNOW, AND, AND WE DO ALL KINDS OF AQUACULTURE AND THE CAGES AND STUFF THAT'S DIFFERENT. WE TRY THINGS. SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE, WE EXPECT THEM TO WORK WITH US AND THEY DO MM-HMM . THEY DO WHEN WE'RE BASING THE GROUNDS AND STUFF. AND, UH, SO SOMETIMES WE MIGHT HAVE TO BEND SAYING THAT SOMETHING THEY WANNA TRY IF THEY'RE, IF THEY HAVE THE PROPER ATTITUDE OF HOPING THAT THE BEST HAPPENS MM-HMM . YEAH. THAT STUFF CAN GO WRONG IN THIS PROJECT AND I REALIZE THAT MM-HMM . BUT, BUT I'M SAYING, BUT SOMETIMES IF, IF, IF THEY HAVE, UH, A PROJECT THAT THEY FEEL GOOD ABOUT MM-HMM . AND WE EXPECT THEM TO SAY YES TO OUR PROJECTS THAT WE DO, YEAH. I GO, IT DOES GO BOTH WAYS. [01:55:01] AND I, I PROMISE YOU I KNOW AND, AND THIS MAN WILL TELL YOU RIGHT BESIDE OF ME, I WILL STAND UP THE GOVERNMENT WHEN I THINK I'M BEING WRONG, BUT I PROMISE YOU THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I DO IT ALL THE TIME. MM-HMM . BUT SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU'RE WORKING WITH ME AND I'VE GOTTA WORK WITH YOU ON YOUR PROJECTS ALSO MM-HMM . AND THAT'S YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. UH, I WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, DR. HY GOT RIGHT OUT ON THE ISLAND WITH ME AND, YOU KNOW, TOOK EVERYTHING I COULD THROW AT HIM FOR THE WHOLE DAY. SO I'M NOT GOING TO GUESS WHAT THE NEXT STEP IS. IF THIS IS A SUCCESS, I'D WELCOME HIM TO SPEAK ON THAT MORE. I JUST THINK THIS ONE DOESN'T REALLY HAVE TRANSFERABLE SITUATIONS, SO THANK YOU. MM-HMM . OKAY. YEAH. I, I, I KINDA LOOK AT THIS AS MORE AS A TEST PROJECT FOR OTHER PLACES LIKE DR. HINES HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT. IF THIS GOES WELL MM-HMM . UH, THERE MAY BE OTHER PROJECTS THAT WOULD BE FUNDED FROM, UH, OTHER SOURCES, BUT GETTING BACK TO WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE, UH, WE'VE GOT TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE ANTICIPATED PUBLIC AND PRIVATE BENEFIT OF THE PROPOSED PROJECT OR ACTIVITIES EXCEEDS ITS ANTICIPATED PUBLIC OR PRIVATE DETRIMENT. SO THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH RIGHT HERE. AND I'M NOT SURE HOW THIS BOARD'S FEELING ABOUT ANY OF THAT, BUT THAT'S WHERE WE, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. WOULD YOU REMIND REPEATING THAT PLEASE? STARTING WITH, UH, EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE. OH, OKAY. THIS IS IN 28.2 DASH 1301 B. OKAY. AND IT SAYS, ANTICIPATED PUBLIC AND PRIVATE BENEFIT OF THE PROPOSED ACTIVITY EXCEEDS ITS ANTICIPATED PUBLIC AND PRIVATE DETRIMENT. MM-HMM . OKAY. SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE CHARGED WITH HERE. YEAH. THAT I AGREE WITH THAT. MAY I REPLY MR. BADGER? MM-HMM. UM, YEAH, I COMPLETELY AGREE. I THINK, YOU KNOW, MY UNDERSTANDING OF THIS BOARD IS TO ENFORCE A NO NET LOSS POLICY ON WETLANDS. AND I THINK VIRGINIA IS ONE OF THE RELATIVELY PROGRESSIVE STATES ON THESE PROTECTIONS COMPARED TO THINGS YOU SEE ON OTHER BARRIER ISLANDS OR NORTH CAROLINA OR NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, A HOUSE EVERY 10 FEET. AND I THINK OUR PROTECTIONS HAVE SERVED US. SO I THINK THE REALLY SIMPLE QUESTION IS THIS PROJECT AT BEST MAY DE VEGETATE THE ENTIRE WETLAND FOR A YEAR, AND AT WORSE MAY PERMANENTLY DE VEGETATE THE WETLANDS SHOULD THE PLANTS NOT TAKE. AND I'M ASKING FOR WHAT THE MITIGATION WOULD BE IN THAT SITUATION, UM, OF A PERMANENT LOSS OF ECOLOGICAL FUNCTION OF WETLANDS, WHICH I THINK WE ALL AGREE ARE VALUABLE, COMMON GOOD OF THE CITIZENS OF THE STATE. UM, YEAH. AND AGAIN, IT'S A 20 TO A HUNDRED YEAR AMOUNT OF SAND, UH, THIN LAYER JUST, YOU KNOW, COMES OVER, GETS STUCK IN THE DUNES, THE UPLANDS, AND IT BUILDS THE HEIGHT. THIS AMOUNT IS A COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF THE EXISTING WETLANDS BY ANY STANDARD. UH, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS, MR. BADGER? FINE FOR RIGHT NOW. WHAT, UH, I'M, I'M FINE FOR RIGHT NOW. ALRIGHT. UH, WOULD WE GO AROUND THE ROOM? ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. VALIANT AT THIS VERY MOMENT? MR. VALIANT, UH, YOU HAVE BEDS AND YOU ALSO GROW IN FLOATS. AM I CORRECT? YES SIR. ALRIGHT. YEAH, ABOUT A HUNDRED YARDS FROM A TOMPKIN ISLAND WHERE A SIMILAR BREACH HAPPENED IN 1995. IT WASN'T OPEN FOR AS LONG, BUT, YOU KNOW, I'D LISTEN TO THE WAVES AT THESE ISLANDS EVERY DAY. AND MY INTUITION IS THIS, THIS PROJECT WILL DO MORE HARM FOR GOOD IN THE LONG TERM HEALTH OF THE ISLAND. I'M NOT OPPOSED TO, YOU KNOW, FEDERAL FUNDING FOR COASTAL RESILIENCY. REAL RESEARCH ON THIS. THIS IS PUTTING A BANDAID ON AN ARM THAT HEALED SIX YEARS AGO. YES SIR. ALRIGHT, DON'T LEAVE US, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. UH, IF I MIGHT, AND THIS INCLUDES PEOPLE THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN TO THE PODIUM, IS THERE ANYONE ELSE THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR JPAI MAKE A STATEMENT? YES, MA'AM. UH, WOULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD? YES. MY NAME IS HANNAH TWITTY AND I NEED YOU TO PULL THAT DOWN. AND DO YOU HAVE, DO YOU AFFIRM OR SWEAR YOU TELL THE TRUTH, WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH AND ALL MATTERS BEFORE THIS BOARD? I DO. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT, MR. CHAIRMAN AND BOARD, THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING US TO SPEAK TODAY. UM, AND I'LL MAKE TWO STATEMENTS ON THIS. I'LL KEEP IT PRETTY BRIEF 'CAUSE YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN HERE FOR A WHILE. YOU HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT'S BEEN THROWN AT YOU. BUT I WANNA SAY THAT THE TWO THINGS THAT I'VE HEARD WHILE I'VE BEEN SITTING HERE TODAY WHEN WE FIRST WALKED IN WAS THE STATEMENT OF NO NET LOSS. AND I KNOW WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT. UM, AND WHILE THIS IS AN EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT, AND YES, IF IT DOES WORK, IT CAN SPREAD TO MANY AREAS OF NOT ONLY OUR BARRIER ISLANDS, BUT UP AND DOWN THE COASTLINE, THAT THERE COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT LOSS HERE ON PRIVATE AND PUBLIC LANDS. AND THE QUESTION TO YOU TODAY IS, IS THAT A BENEFIT [02:00:02] OF THIS AREA, THAT THE APPLICATION STATES THAT THERE ARE GONNA BE, THERE WILL BE A NET INCREASE. AND IF THAT HAPPENS, THEN YES, IF THERE'S AN OVER WASH, THE SAND LANDS ON THE BACK MARSH, THERE'S AN EXTENDED PLATFORM FOR IT TO LAND ON, AND THERE MAY NOT BE AN INLET THAT'S FORMED. HOWEVER, LET'S SAY THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, RIGHT? LET'S SAY THAT THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. AND WE GET STORMS HERE EVERY YEAR, RIGHT? I RUN A SAILING SCHOOL, I HEAR THE THREAT OF A HURRICANE COMING AND I PULL THREE DOZEN BOATS OFF THE WATER AND CANCEL DOZENS OF KIDS COMING OUT TO GO TO SALE. SO LET'S SAY THAT WE DO HAVE AN EVENT COME IN, ESPECIALLY DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS PROJECT AND DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS PROJECT, THAT'S A TIME WHERE THE WETLANDS OF THIS AREA ARE GONNA BE PICKED UP. THEY'RE GONNA BE REMOVED, THE SAND'S GONNA COME IN, AND THEN THE WETLANDS ARE GONNA COME BACK, AND THEN PLANTINGS ARE GOING TO SUPPLEMENT THOSE WETLANDS. SO LET'S SAY THAT WE HAVE AN EVENT THAT HAPPENS DURING THIS TIME. WHAT COULD POTENTIALLY HAPPEN IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT NET LOSS, NOT NO NET LOSS THAT WAS PRESENTED HERE TO THE BOARD TODAY. I KNOW THAT'S A WHAT IF CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING TO BE CONSIDERED THAT WE COULD LIT, WE COULD LOSE THE VEGETATION THAT IS NATURALLY GROWING BACK. UM, AND THEN THE OTHER STATEMENT TO THAT, WHICH UM, I HADN'T REALLY THOUGHT OF BEFORE, BUT WAS WE ARE BUILDING A BIG PLATFORM, RIGHT? THAT COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT TO THE LANDOWNERS OF THAT AREA THAT COULD SET A PRECEDENT THAT THIS COULD CONTINUE ON OTHER BARRIER ISLANDS. AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S A LOT OF LEGISLATION AND CODE THAT WAS THROWN AROUND WITH THAT TOPIC. UM, I'M ORIGINALLY FROM NORTH CAROLINA. I VISITED THE OUTER BANKS. I'VE BEEN UP AND DOWN THERE MY WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE. AND I HAVE SEEN THAT PLACE CHANGE WITH HOUSES THAT HAVE COME IN AND PROJECTS SUCH AS THESE, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE A HUNDRED YEARS DOWN THE ROAD FROM MAYBE A HOUSE GOING ON AN ISLAND, IT SETS A PRECEDENT THAT WE CAN BUILD AN ISLAND. AND THEN IF WE BUILD THE ISLAND, THEN A HOUSE COULD POTENTIALLY GO THERE. AND IF A HOUSE GOES THERE TWO, 300 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, WE SEE WHAT STARTS HAPPENING, RIGHT? THE HOUSES ARE FALLING INTO THE OCEAN. GRANTED, THAT'S ON THE PUBLIC AND THAT'S ON THE PRIVATE CITIZENS THAT ARE PUTTING THE HOUSES THERE. THEY ARE TAKING THE RISK OF PUTTING IT ON AN ISLAND, BUT SETTING THE PRECEDENT THAT WE CAN BUILD UP THE ISLAND TO STABILIZE IT WOULD ALLOW THAT THOUGHT TO AT LEAST START MOVING FORWARD. NOT ONLY ON CEDAR ISLAND HERE, THE PROJECT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, BUT LET'S SAY THAT THIS CONTINUES ON ANOTHER ISLAND, RIGHT? THIS IS AN EXPERIMENT THAT WE WANT TO SUCCEED. BIMSON WANTS IT TO SEED. ALL OF US WANT IT TO SUCCEED. AND IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN, THEN THAT COULD EXTEND, UM, THE WETLAND BOARD. UH, IN THE SLIDES THAT WERE PRESENTED TODAY, IF YOU NOTICE THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE CURRENT STATE OF THE ISLAND, RIGHT? IT'S A LOW, IT'S A LOW LYING ISLAND, BUT IT COMES FROM THE OCEAN OVER SMALL SAND DUNES THAT ARE GROWING TO HIGH MARSH THAT INTEGRATES VERY NATURALLY INTO LOW MARSH. BUT IF YOU TAKE A, A LOOK AT THE PROJECT PROPOSAL, WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING IS A SWITCHING MUCH OF THAT LOW MARSH TO HIGH MARSH. AND SO I ASK, DOES THAT ACTUALLY MIMIC THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT? IF YOU LOOK AT THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT TODAY OF CEDAR ISLAND AND OF OTHER ISLANDS, IS THE PROJECT PROPOSAL DIRECTLY, UH, INTEGRATED AND MIMICKING OF THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT? OR ARE WE MAYBE ADJUSTING THAT? AND THAT'S, THAT'S A QUESTION TO VIMS THAT MAYBE THIS PROJECT IS A GREAT IDEA, BUT IT MAY NEED SOME ADJUSTMENT TO ACTUALLY MIMIC THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE ISLAND. SO THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE MY THOUGHTS TO THE BOARD. I WON'T TAKE UP MUCH MORE OF YOUR TIME, BUT JUST THE PRECEDENT THAT THIS IS SETTING AND, UM, THAT THERE COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT NET LOSS WHILE THERE COULD BE A GAIN, THERE COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT LET LOSS NET LOSS OF VEGETATION WITHIN THIS PROJECT PROPOSAL. THANK YOU, MA'AM. ANY QUESTIONS? THIS YOUNG LADY? THANK YOU MA'AM. ONCE AGAIN, I ASK IS ANYONE THAT'S BEEN HERE OR NOT HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR JPA? RIGHT. ASK THE BOARD ONE MORE TIME BEFORE I CLOSE IT TO PUBLIC. GOT ANY QUESTIONS FOR ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE PODIUM OR NOT? PROBABLY FOR MS. CLAIRE. DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION FOR MS. CLAIRE? UM, BEEN SWORN IN, SO WE DEFINITELY GOTTA RESPECT BEN'S UM, UM, ASPECT ON THIS PROJECT. WHAT IS BM C'S UM, TAKE ON THIS PROJECT? WHAT IS OUR TAKE ON THE PROJECT? YES. WHAT, WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO? YEAH, COME ON, . WELL, AS THERE ARE, THERE IS, THEY TELL US ALL TIME AND AS THE APPELLANT REVIEW BOARD, I CANNOT, YOU KNOW, PROVIDE OUR, YOU KNOW, COMMENTARY ON THE PROJECT ITSELF. WHAT I CAN SAY [02:05:01] IS THAT WE ARE PROCESSING THIS FOR CE AQUEOUS PERMIT. UM, AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, THE SHOAL IMPACTS ARE EXEMPT AND WE WILL BE HANDLING THAT EXEMPTION LETTER GOING OUT. BUT BEYOND THAT, UM, IF YOU HAVE ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PROJECT, I CAN, I CAN SPEAK TO THAT. BUT IT, IT DOES APPEAR THAT THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PROJECTS IN THE WETLANDS BORDERS JURISDICTION. IS THAT CORRECT? THE, WELL, WE WILL BE, THE, OUR PERMIT WOULD INCLUDE THE SUBTITLE, DREDGING OF THE, OF THE SHOAL, THE PIPE. MM-HMM . TO PIPE THE SAND NORTH, AND THEN THE SUBMERGED LANDS THAT WILL BE FILLED TO CREATE LOW MARSH. BUT THE SO FROM VOLUME? YEAH, I'M NOT, I ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD IF IT'S GREATER THAN IT APPEARED THAT MOST OF THIS IS IN THE WETLANDS BOARD JURISDICTION. AS FAR AS THE FILLING PORTION OF IT? YEAH. MM-HMM . OKAY. I'M GLAD YOU BOUGHT THAT. THAT'S THE TOTALITY OF A PROJECT. AS YOU INDICATED, SOME OF IT IS OUTSIDE OF OUR JURISDICTION, THERE'S GONNA BE SOME FILL GOING BELOW MEAN LOW WATER YEAH. AS YOU SAID. YES. AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, I'M SORT OF CURIOUS, WE NOW KNOW WOULD MEAN, UH, 1.5 TIDE RANGE IS, IT'S ABOUT SIX FEET. UH, I GUESS TO YOU IN THE PROJECT HERE IS NOTHING'S GONNA BE DONE TO TAKE IT ABOVE SIX FEET IN TERMS OF ADDING SAND OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, RIGHT? CORRECT. AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND, IT'S ALL WITHIN, ON THE OCEAN SIDE. NOTHING IS GONNA BE ARMED WITHIN OUR JURISDICTION. ON THE OTHER END BEING THE, WHERE WE HAVE TO PUT IN THIS LOW SUBMERGED SAND THAT, THAT'S THE PERMIT THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT'S VM C'S PERKY? YES. OKAY. SO I JUST WANNA GET A HAND ON WHAT'S IN OUR JURISDICTION VERY MUCH. AND IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THERE'S ANY DUNE BEACH PORTION INVOLVED. WELL, THAT'S OKAY. THANK YOU. I WAS WAS GONNA, WHICH WOULD'VE GONE BACK TO CLAIRE EXACTLY. OR UMRC ANYWAY, SINCE IT AWAY IT'S ALL INSIDE THE DUNE BEACH AREA THEN, BASICALLY. OKAY, VERY GOOD. NO, NO DUNE BEACH, NO DUNE AND BEACH, NO DUNE BEACH. JUST RIGHT IMPACTS. YEAH. OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR YOU? ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR CLAIRE? NO. UM, MAY I, EVERY PERMIT THAT WE HAVE ISSUED IN MY YEARS OF BEING HERE THAT INVOLVES VEG BEING, UH, DISTURBED, WE HAVE OFFERED A THREE TO FIVE, MAYBE TWO TO FIVE PLANTING REPLANTING SCHEDULE. ARE WE IN A POSITION TO OFFER THAT? UH, OR IS THAT OUT OF OUR JURISDICTION TO OFFER THAT TO THE NATURE OF CONSERVANCY? OR IS ANYONE UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION AT FIRST? THEY DON'T THINK THEY HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH IT BECAUSE THEY WANT THE, THEY WANT THE PLANS TO BE THERE TO MAKE IT WORK. IS THE PLANNING PLAN IN HERE? DID I MISS THAT? UH, I DID NOT READ THE PLANTING PLAN OR SCHEDULE. AND, UH, SIR, UH, YEAH, THEY HAVEN'T NAMED THE CONTRACTOR YET. THERE'S SOME VAGUE NUMBERS, BUT THERE'S NOT A SCHEDULE. THEY HAVEN'T NAMED THE EQUIPMENT TO WATER THE PLANTS. UM, AND THE NUMBERS OF PLANTS ARE IN THERE, BUT AGAINST THE CURRENT COUNTS, IT'S DR. SNYDER AND I DID ROUGHLY A 90% REDUCTION IN THE NUMBER OF PLANTS. AND SO, CHUCK, SO I'VE GOT A QUESTION FOR YOU. UH, IS THERE A PLANNING PLAN IN HERE? I, I DIDN'T SEE IT. YES. AM I JUST MISSED IT? YES. OKAY. AND DOES IT, EXCUSE ME, MA'AM. UM, I DID NOT SEE THE PLANTING PLAN, OBVIOUSLY. THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR. SHOW YOU. UH, YES. WOULD YOU APPROACH? THAT'D BE GREAT. OH, OKAY. OH, OKAY. OH YEAH. VERY LAST PAGE. NO, VERY LAST PAGE. OKAY. ALRIGHT. ALRIGHT. CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN? JUST I CAN'T EVEN, IT'S SO SMALL, I CAN'T SEE. IT'S SO SMALL. CAN SOMEONE CAN'T SEE IT? EXPLAIN IT. UM, UM, YEAH, IT'S, IT'S JUST SO SMALL. YOU WANT, MAYBE YOU CAN READ IT. SOME OF IT. I WANT TO KNOW IF THERE IS ANY REPLANT. YEAH, REPLANTING INVOLVED. IT DOESN'T, THERE IS A ONE YEAR WARRANTY. ONE YEAR WARRANTY. JUST ONE SECOND MA'AM. IF YOU DON'T MIND. UH, THERE IS A ONE YEAR WARRANTY. WHAT THAT MEANS TO ME IS A WARRANTY IS A WARRANTY ONE YEAR, [02:10:01] AND YOU ARE OUT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? YES, MA'AM. PLEASE EXCUSE ME. OKAY. THANK YOU. UH, THE QUESTION IS, UH, WHAT EXACTLY DOES A ONE YEAR WARRANTY MEAN? YEAH, SO THAT'S, UM, WITH THE, THE GREENHOUSE, YOU KNOW, GROWING OUT THE PLANTS, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY PROVIDE THE PLANTS AND YOU PLANT THEM, PROVIDED YOU PLANT THEM HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO AND FERTILIZE THEM AND ALL, IF THEY DIE WITHIN THE YEAR, THEN THE GREENHOUSE WILL REPLACE THEM, SO THEY WOULD BE PLANTED AGAIN. BEYOND THAT, WE ARE NOT PROPOSING REPLANTING, UM, FOR A FEW REASONS. PARTIALLY BECAUSE, YEAH, BECAUSE WE CANNOT GUARANTEE, UM, THAT WE WILL HAVE THE FUNDING TO DO SO. UM, KIND OF LIKE WHAT THE ARMY CORPS OFTEN DOES THAT THEY SAY, IF FUNDING ALLOWS, WE'LL DO THIS. UM, WE'RE, WE DIDN'T TRY TO PULL THAT OVER ON YOU. UM, SO WE, WE KNOW WE'RE, WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE THE FUNDING. UM, BUT ALSO BECAUSE PART OF THIS PROJECT IS TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. SO OFTEN MONEY IS THE ISSUE AND PUTTING IN A PROJECT AND THEN SEEING HOW IT DEVELOPS, UM, OVER TIME IS PART OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SEE, PARTICULARLY WITH THOSE BIRD ACCESS CORRIDORS. HOW THE VEGETATION, IF AND HOW AND HOW LONG IT ENCROACHES INTO THOSE CORRIDORS. UM, OR DO THOSE SPREAD. UM, FROM AN AVIAN PERSPECTIVE, THEY WOULD MUCH PREFER THAT THERE IS NO VEGETATION OR VERY, VERY SPARSE. UM, SO THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT FOR US WORKING THROUGH WITH, UM, BOTH FISH AND WILDLIFE AND DEPARTMENT OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES TO COME UP WITH THIS PLAN THAT BALANCES THE NEED FOR, YOU KNOW, VEGETATION, STABLING AS IN THE ISLAND, AND THE NEED FOR THE BIRDS TO HAVE MUCH LESS VEGETATION. UM, AND SO WE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT NOT REPLANTING IF ALL OF THE PLANTS, YOU KNOW, DIE IN SOME SPOTS AND DO REALLY WELL IN THE OTHER, WE WANT TO SEE HOW THE MARSH EVOLVES OVER TIME. IS, WAS PART OF IT. UM, MA'AM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN HERE, BUT I'M GONNA SAY ONE THING. UH, I GUESS IT WORKED FOR FREE, SO I GET TO SAY WHAT I WANT. , UH, AS I'VE TOLD YOU, DOZENS AND DOZENS OF PRIVATE CITIZENS, UH, LET'S ASSUME A BULKHEAD HAS BROKEN THROUGH AND WETLANDS HAS FORMED BEHIND IT. UH, AND THEY HAVE TO, UH, REPLANT THEM. WHATEVER, UH, WE PUT IN THE MOTION THEY HAVE A 2, 3, 4, 5 YEAR ABILITY TO REPLANT IT. NOW THEY MAY NOT HAVE THE MONEY. NEVER SEEN THAT HAPPEN. DO THEY TAKE BANKRUPTCY? AND I DO REALIZE THAT, UH, HAVE AN OLD SAYING, THAT'S NOT SO GREAT. BUT WHEN YOU OWN THE GAME AND THE RULES, YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU WANT. SO I JUST WANT THAT SAID FOR THE RECORD, THAT IF IT'S ONLY A ONE YEAR, UM, IT IS OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT THAN WE HAVE GIVEN PERMITS TO THE PUBLIC FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS FOR WHATEVER IT'S WORTH. AND I FREQUENTLY RECOMMEND THAT IN COMMENTS THAT I GIVE YOU AND OTHER BOARDS AS WELL. MM-HMM . UM, THE DIFFERENCE IN THIS AMONG OTHER THINGS IS, IS SCALE. THAT HAVING IMPACTING ON THE ORDER OF SQUARE FEET AND YOU'RE REPLANTING THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE THE SORT OF LARGE NATURAL ABILITY TO EVOLVE, UM, OVER TIME. WHEREAS THIS AREA, JUST LIKE IF IT WAS A 50 TO A HUNDRED YEAR OVER WASH EVENT AND COVERED THE AREA IN SAND, THAT WOULD EVOLVE INTO A MARSH SLOWLY, AS WE SAW WITH THE FLOOD TITLE DELTA AND THE OLD INLET. UM, SO WE ARE PROPOSING TO KICKSTART THAT PROCESS BY PLANTING, UM, KNOWING THAT IF THE PLANTS DON'T SURVIVE EVERYWHERE AND IT'S VERY UNLIKELY THAT THEY WON'T SURVIVE IN THE ENTIRE PROJECT. RIGHT? SO IT'S, UM, THERE WE'RE ANTICIPATING THAT THEY WILL SOME AREAS, YOU KNOW, WHERE WE ARE PUTTING KIND OF CHANNELS AND UNVEGETATED AREAS, THAT THOSE WILL SHIFT AND MOVE. UM, AND SO WE DON'T WANT TO BE HELD TO, HEY, YOU PLANNED THIS EXACT ROUTE OF THIS UNRATED CORRIDOR. YOU HAVE TO REPLANT THAT EXACT ROUTE. IF THE ISLAND'S TRYING TO, TO SHIFT. THIS ISN'T A MITIGATION BANK TYPE PROJECT THAT WE HAVE THESE SQUARE FEET OF, UM, WETLANDS THAT WE'RE CREATING, UNDERSTAND WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP FOREVER. OKAY. UH, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? UH, YES, SIR. MR. WARD? I DON'T REMEMBER. I KNOW IT'S HERE. IS THIS TOTALLY FEDERAL FUNDED OR STATE, [02:15:01] SIR? DR. HE, YEAH. IF I JUST, 'CAUSE I, I'M THE ONE WHO WROTE THE, UH, UH, WOULD YOU PLEASE, IF YOU DON'T MIND, UH, JUST 'CAUSE I WROTE THE PROPOSALS, UH, FOR THIS, THIS IS ENTIRELY FEDERALLY FUNDED. SO FOR THE RECORD, THESE ARE, THIS IS, WE'VE REC RECENTLY RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF AN AWARD NOT YET FUNDED FOR THE CONSTRUCTION PIECE OF THIS. UM, THEY'VE PREVIOUS PHASES EVERYWHERE FROM CONCEPTUAL DESIGN THROUGH WHAT ALLOWED US TO COLLECT THE DATA TO DESIGN. THIS WAS, UH, THE NATIONAL FISH AND WILDLIFE FOUNDATION, UM, AND WITH SUB-AWARDS TO OUR COLLEAGUES AT RANDOLPH MACON COLLEGE AT THE, OUR ECOLOGIST AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY AND THE TEAM AT STANTEC. UM, THERE WAS ONE GRANT THAT WAS A, UM, CALLED COMPETITIVE STATE WILDLIFE GRANTS, WHICH WAS, UH, NATIONAL FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, WHICH WAS TWO, UH, DEPARTMENT, UH, VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES. AND, UM, AND WITH THE SUB-AWARD TO US, SO THAT'S WHAT'S SUPPORTED THIS SO FAR, THIS NEW ONE THAT'S BEEN NOTIFIED, AND IT'S BEEN IN THE PAPER HERE AS WELL AND NOT YET AWARDED IS FOR IT'S, UH, JUST, AND YOU'LL, SO YOU'LL SEE THE NOTIFICATIONS LIKE 5.1 MILLION AND IT IS FROM AS WELL. OKAY. AND IT IS A FOUR YEAR AWARD. AND THIS, THIS IS WHERE SOME OF THE CONCERNS ARE DOING A SCIENTIFIC ST YOU KNOW, DOING THIS FROM A SCIENCE SIDE RATHER THAN HAVING A A MUNICIPALITY COVER THE COSTS IS WHAT LEAVES US IN THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS SITUATION THAT EMILY MENTIONED AS WELL. RIGHT? THIS IS, THIS IS THE GRANT, THIS IS HOW THEY DO IT. THIS ALSO TO SPEAK TO SOMETHING ELSE, JUST TO ON THE FUNDING IS WHY WE CAN'T REDIRECT THE FUNDS TO TI OR TO ANGIER, RIGHT? THIS IS A GREAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A GREAT IDEA AND I HEAR THIS FROM FOLKS, WHY NOT LIKE THOSE NEED THIS MORE THAN COI, I'M NOT GONNA DISAGREE. THOSE ARE PEOPLE WITH PROPERTY THERE. UM, I TOO AGREE WITH MR. VALIANT. WE'D LOVE TO SEE THEM THERE FOR GENERATIONS TO COME. THIS NIF SUPPORTS SCIENCE-BASED, NATURE-BASED SOLUTIONS. THEY'RE NOT GONNA BUY, UH, BREAKWATER AROUND 10 YEAR OR THE HARBOR OF SHIITE. AND THAT'S JUST THE NATURE OF THE FUNDING. SO BRING THIS IN FEDERAL. WE'VE NOT REQUESTED ANY MONEY EXCEPT FROM THE FEDS ON THIS ONE, FROM THOSE AGENCIES. QUESTION, UH, ONE SECOND. UH, CAN EITHER ONE OF YOU TELL ME WHEN THE CONTRACTOR MIGHT OR MAY NOT BE SELECTED? IF THIS IS, IF THIS JP A'S AWARD? IF I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM THE FUNDING SIDE. UH, I'M TALKING, GOTTEN THE CHANCE TO DO THIS BEFORE. UM, THEY REQUIRE CONSTRUCTION TO START ONE YEAR FOLLOWING, WHICH GIVES US TIME FOR SELECTING, YOU KNOW, PUTTING OUT BIDS PROBABLY IN THE SIX MONTH TIMEFRAME. UM, DOING ANY, UH, AS, AS WRITTEN IN THERE, THE PRE-SURVEYS, UM, BEFORE THE WORK BEGINS. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, IN THEORY IT SHOULD HAVE STARTED JANUARY ONE, BUT IT, WE, WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM 'EM YET. OKAY. MR. COURSE, LIKE I SAID, I GOT, I GOTTA AGREE THAT THESE, UH, PLANNINGS, WHICH ARE WAY LESS SPARSE THAN WHAT'S ALREADY NATURALLY THERE, BUT THEM LIVING SHOULD BE A HIGH PRIORITY IN, IN THIS PROJECT'S SUCCESS. I MEAN, AM I RIGHT OR WRONG ON THAT INSURE PLANTING THAT THE PLAN IS LIT? I GUESS IT DEPENDS ON, ON THE PERSPECTIVE. I, I, I'M, YEAH, I WANNA BE, YOU KNOW, TRUTHFUL TO, TO MULTIPLE PERSPECTIVES HERE AND THAT, THAT I SHARE. SO FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, EXACTLY WHAT EMILY SAID WAS, WAS RIGHT. IT'S IF THIS WAS A LARGE OVER WASH, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO REPLICATE. THAT, THAT, YOU CAN SEE IT JUST TO THE LEFT SOUTH OF THE PROJECT AREA THERE, THE OLD FLOOD TITLE DELTA, UM, THAT IS A SANDBAR. THAT WAS BARE SAND. THAT WAS EVENTUALLY, UH, FINE SEDIMENTS CAME IN, IT WAS COLONIZED BY MARSH, AND NOW IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE A HEALTHY AND GROWING STILL LOW, BUT, BUT A GROWING MARSH DOWN THERE TO THE SOUTH. SO SCIENTIFICALLY IT, THERE IS A CASE OF LEAD, YOU KNOW, IF IT DOESN'T TAKE, THAT IS THE NATURAL CONDITION OF AN OVER WASH. THAT SAID, WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE IT THAT BOOST. AND THAT'S THE OTHER SIDE OF IT WHERE I, I UNDERSTAND THE CONCERNS HERE ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO SEE THIS BECOME MARSH, BECAUSE MARSH PROVIDES THAT PLATFORM. SAM PROVIDES A PLATFORM, MARSH PROVIDES A PLATFORM THAT GROWS WITH SEA LEVEL. BUT, UM, I THINK WE AS A BOARD WANT TO SIT. THAT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE GRASS SAY IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE FEELING VEGETATED MARSH. I UNDERSTAND. AND IT'S LIKE I SAY, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE PLANTING SPARSE, MORE SPARSE, YOU PROBABLY WANT A FOOT MORRIS BIKE WAS FULLY PLANTED, WHEREAS NOW IT'S A FULL, UH, FULL FLEDGED MARSH. AND I, I, IT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, I I MEAN I WANT YOU TO GET ME TO YEAH. BUT, UH, RIGHT NOW YOU'RE SAYING THAT IT'S OKAY IF IT DON'T KIND OF TELL ME YOU'RE OKAY. IF IT, IF IT DON'T, [02:20:01] UH, TAKE, AND THAT'S JUST MEANS YOU'RE JUST FEELING VEGETATED MARSH IF THAT, IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT, THAT THAT ONE YEAR DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU, THEN I'M SAYING YOU'RE FEELING JUST FEELING MARSH. AND THAT'S OKAY. TO BE CLEAR, I'M NOT, I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T MEAN ANY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, I'M SAYING THERE'S TWO SIDES OF IT WHERE THAT SCIENTIFICALLY YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S, THAT IS LESS OF A PRIORITY. BUT FOR THE SIDE OF THE PROJECT AND SUCCESS AND, YOU KNOW, THE SIDE THAT WE WANT TO IMPROVE THE OVERALL STATE OF THE ISLAND, THEN THAT IS, WE, I DON'T HAVE AN, I CAN'T SPEAK TO AN ANSWER TO HOW THAT'S FUNDED TODAY. OKAY? YES, SIR. MR. BADGER, I'M NOT SURE WHO THIS IS FOR YOU OR FOR CLAIRE, UH, ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS, WHERE DO THEY STAND AS FAR AS PERMITTING? UM, I DON'T KNOW IF STANEC MIGHT BE ABLE TO RESPOND BETTER, BUT AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY'RE IN THE PRO, THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS IS IN THE PROCESS OF ISSUING AN INDIVIDUAL PERMIT FOR THE PRO FOR THE PROJECT. UM, BUT THAT'S ALL I KNOW, THAT'S A CORRECT STATEMENT. OKAY. IN THE PRO IN THE PROCESS, ARMY CORPS OF AN IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE, THE ARMY CORPS IS IN PROCESS FOR AN INDIVIDUAL, INDIVIDUAL PERMIT REVIEWING IT. OKAY. THEY'RE, THEY'RE REVIEWING IT JUST LIKE WE ARE NOW. CORRECT. OKAY. ALRIGHT. AND, UH, FEDERAL FUNDING DID, I KIND OF WASN'T SURE IF YOU HAD FULL FEDERAL FUNDING OR IF YOU'RE JUST KIND OF, WHERE ARE YOU IN THE, IN THE FUNDING? I KNOW YOU SPOKE ABOUT IT, BUT I DID, I JUST, I GAVE YOU THE LONG STORY. SORRY. NO, NO, YOU'RE GOOD TO GO. JUST, JUST SAY IT, PLEASE. THERE YOU GO. THANK YOU. UM, SO THE SHORT STORY IS THAT WE HAVE, UM, 5 MILLION, 5.1 MILLION IN PROMISE FUNDING FROM THE NATIONAL FISH AND WILDLIFE FOUNDATION. IT'S BEEN ANNOUNCED BY THEN. THE CONTRACTING HAS NOT OCCURRED TO VINS. THAT'S THE FUNDING THAT WOULD BE, UH, ALL BUT IN INCOMES CALL. OKAY. BUT YOU NEED, YOU NEED A PERMIT TO BE ABLE TO USE THAT FUNDING COURSE. YEAH. SO WHAT DOES THAT GET YOU? THE FIVE, 5 MILLION? SO WE LOOKED AT THIS WITH THIS AND, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD PROBABLY REQUIRE A LEVEL OF REQUESTING THE PERMIT FOR THE FULL PROJECT AS, AS THEIR, UM, THIS, BECAUSE THEY ONLY CAP, THEY CAP THESE GRANTS AT, AT BASICALLY THAT LEVEL. THIS IS THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT. UM, AND THEY GAVE A FEW HUNDRED MILLION THIS YEAR, UH, ACROSS PROJECTS. UH, WE, WE'D HAVE TO DO IT IN A PHASED APPROACH AS, UM, YOU KNOW, WE CAN, SO THIS WOULD POTENTIALLY MEAN THAT YOU WOULD TAKE THE DREDGE MATERIAL FIRST, PUT IT UP THERE AND IT MAY SIT THERE LIKE THEY WERE SAYING FOR NO, NO, NO, NO. I'M SORRY. OKAY. SO THE PHASING WOULD BE, UH, AN AERIAL PHASING. SO IT WOULD BE, WE TAKE A CHUNK OF THE PROJECT, THE AREAS THAT ARE LOWEST, THE AREAS OR THE NORTHERN AREA, YOU KNOW, THE SOUTHERN ONE CLOSER TO THE, YOU KNOW, DOWN HERE AS IT EXTENDS IN THIS AREA, UHHUH, , YOU KNOW, AS WELL PROTECTED BY THE ISLAND AND SOME HEALTHY DUNES THAT ARE IN FRONT OF IT THAT HAVE SOME SHRUBS IN AND ARE, AND ARE SITTING, SITTING TALL. OKAY. IT'S THE NORTHERN AREA THAT WOULD BE PRIORITY IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO INITIATE THIS. AND THAT'S ALL WE EVER GET FUNDING TO DO. OKAY. IT WOULD BE UNFORTUNATE, BUT IT WOULD AT LEAST ALLOW US TO ADDRESS THAT PART. THE, SO, GOTCHA. YEAH. SO THAT WOULD BE THE FULL PRI FULL EVERYTHING DESCRIBED EXCEPT SMALLER. OKAY. SO THE 20 MILLION IS NOT GUARANTEED? NO, ONLY ROUGHLY $5 MILLION. I'M NOT SURE. NOTHING IS GUARANTEED. THERE'S 20 MILLION IN THE PROPOSAL. I'M NOT IN THE APPLICATION. I'M NOT SURE WHERE THAT NUMBER IS FROM. THAT WAS A, THE 20 MILLION WAS A, UM, ENGINEER'S ESTIMATE AT THE TIME THAT THE INITIAL, I THINK IT'S 60% DESIGN. OKAY. UM, WE SCALED IT THAT NUMBER BACK THROUGH MORE, UM, DELIBERATE THOUGHT TO, I BELIEVE IT WAS 15 MILLION. UM, AND CHRIS AND I HAVE WORKED TOGETHER TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A PROJECT THAT WAS FUNDABLE IN TERMS OF A DOLLAR AMOUNT TO HIS POINT FOR THE 5 MILLION BEING A CAP, WHICH IS NOT, WHICH IS NOT IN THE BANK YET, IS THAT CORRECT? CORRECT. UM, AND ALL, ALL, ALL, ALL THAT. I MEAN, THEY, THEY WILL NOT, THEY WILL NOT PULL IT BACK AT, WELL, OKAY. I WON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BUT MY POINT YEAH. YEAH. TO YOUR POINT. BUT YEAH, THAT'S, UH, THAT'S RIGHT. I MEAN, IT'S, THEY'VE PUBLICIZED IT, SO I'VE NEVER HAD A GRANT THAT THIS GETS PULLED. THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR RIGHT THERE. GO AHEAD, SIR. ONE, ONE. OH, GO AHEAD. I WAS GONNA SAY, TO BE CLEAR THAT WHAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US IS THE FULLY FUNDED REQUEST. THAT'S CORRECT. AND IF YOU ONLY GET 5 MILLION, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO TAKE, ONLY DO A PORTION OF THIS. OKAY? MM-HMM. ALRIGHT. HOW HAS, DOES THAT [02:25:01] IMPACT THE JPA? IS THAT SOMETHING, UH, SHOULD WE HAVE LIKE A SEGMENTED JPA OR HOW? I'M NOT QUITE SURE. I NEVER DON'T QUITE REMEMBER HAVING AN ISSUE LIKE THIS, LIKE IT SPEAK TO THAT MR. CHAIRMAN. PLEASE DO. UM, WE'RE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE NOT PIECEMEAL A PROCESS, SO WE'RE REQUIRED TO SHOW YOU THE WHOLE ENCHILADA, IF YOU WILL. MM-HMM . UM, I WOULD EXPECT THAT IF THIS APPLICATION IS APPROVED BY ALL PERMITTING, PERMITTING ENTITIES, WE'LL HAVE TO COME BACK WITH A PHASING PLAN FOR YOU TO REVIEW AS WE MOVE TO IMPLEMENTATION. IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF, WE JUST DON'T HAVE A LIMITED RESOURCES. SO, UH, WE HAVE TO HAVE IT REVIEWED IN TOTAL 'CAUSE WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO PIECEMEAL. UM, BUT VERY LIKELY HAVE TO COME BACK FOR A SUBSEQUENT REVIEW WITH ANY PHASING PLAN THAT WE WOULD PROPOSE. AND THAT WOULD BE BASED ON THE DOLLARS AVAILABLE. OKAY. SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS IF WE GRANT THIS JPA, IT TURNS OUT YOU ARE NOT FULLY FUNDED. SOMEONE WOULD COME BACK IN HERE AND DISCUSS A, WHAT THE PHASE WILL BE, AND THEN WE HAVE TO APPROVE THAT, THAT THAT MODIFICATION OR THE IMPACTS WOULDN'T NECESSARILY CHANGE FOR THAT PHASE, UH, UNLESS THERE'S A DESIGN CHANGE THAT I'M NOT ANTICIPATING. UM, SO IT'S A QUESTION OF, UM, WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WOULD BE A QUESTION OF IN FRONT OF THE BOARD AT THAT POINT OTHER THAN CONCURRENCE WITH THE APPROACH, THE PHASING APPROACH. WELL, I THINK THAT'S ONE THING I'M CONCERNED WITH ALL THE THINGS DISCUSSED. I MEAN, I'M TRYING IN MY MIND TO THINK WHAT KIND OF BENCHMARKS CAN WE GIVE PEOPLE, GIVE US THAT WILL SAY, OKAY, THIS IS WORKING, THIS IS NOT WORKING. SHOULD WE DO SOMETHING ELSE? I MEAN, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE IN MIND OR IS THAT, AM I JUST WISHING SOMETHING THERE THAT, SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PERFORMANCE BENCHMARKS? YES. NOT SURVEY BENCHMARKS. UM, SO I THINK AS, UM, EMILY DESCRIBED AND THE, THE PLANTING PLAN DESCRIBES WHAT WILL, WHAT WE WILL BE PLANTING, UH, AS EMILY DESCRIBED IT, PART OF THIS EFFORT IS TO MONITOR HOW THAT ISLAND RESPONDS, HOW THAT AREA, THAT PLANTED AREA RESPONDS. UM, SOME AREAS. AND TO YOUR, TO THE COMMENT THAT WAS MADE EARLIER BECAUSE THE, THE COMPARISON TO A MITIGATION SITE WHERE YOU CONSTRUCT WETLANDS, UM, WE DO A LOT OF WETLAND DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION, ESPECIALLY IN NON-TITLE WETLANDS, ALTHOUGH I'VE DONE TITLE. UM, AND THOSE ARE VERY RIGID ON PURPOSE, UM, BECAUSE YOU'RE MEASURING AGAINST AN IMPACT THAT WAS TAKEN, AND THIS IS COMPENSATORY MITIGATION FOR THAT IMPACT. UM, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT IN THIS SETTING ON A BARRIER ISLAND, ONE OF THE MOST DYNAMIC SETTINGS IN VIRGINIA TO GUARANTEE THAT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BLADE OF GRASS IN THE EXACT LOCATION. YOU SHOW IT ON THE PLAN. SO I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME ADAPTABILITY IN HOW THE SITE RESPONDS. RIGHT. AND GENTLEMAN POINTED OUT, WE, YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS, YOU ARE NOT SURE IF IT IS DOING GOOD OR MAYBE NOT DOING GOOD. IT'S, AS YOU JUST DESCRIBED, IT'S VERY TOUGH TO MEASURE THAT THE RESULTS ARE WELL, AND, AND TYPICALLY THE, THE MEASUREMENT FOR A VEGETATED TIDAL WETLAND IS PERCENT COVER. SO WHEN THE MONITORING OCCURS IN ADDITION TO THE ELEVATION THAT WOULD BE TAKEN, UM, YOU DO A PERCENT COVER MAP, WHICH SPEAKS TO THE NUMBER OF STEMS THAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED EARLIER. UM, AND IT TAKES, IN MY EXPERIENCE IN TIDAL SYSTEMS, IT TAKES TWO TO THREE YEARS AT LEAST TO GET APPROACHING THE DENSITY THAT WAS THERE ORIGINALLY, OR THE DESIGN DENSITY OR, SO IT'S, IT'S A PROCESS I GUESS. UH, AND THE THING THAT'S SORT OF, THAT'S ON THE FULCRUM HERE KIND OF IS IT TALKS ABOUT GAIN OF 4.69 ACRES OF WETLANDS. WE'VE ALREADY HAD DISCUSSION THAT MIGHT NOT BE EXACTLY TRUE. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE? I MEAN, ARE WE REALLY GONNA GET 4.69 ACRES MORE OF WETLANDS? OR IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S A LITTLE BIT, I REALIZE WE JUST HAD OUR DISCUSSION. YEAH. IS THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE NEBULOUS OR WHAT, WHAT CAN YOU SAY TO, TO SORT OF GIVE US A THAT IS, THAT IS THE DESIGN INTENT OF THE PROJECT, UM, IN THE AREAS TO THE WESTERN PORTION OF THE PROJECT AREA WHERE IT'S CURRENTLY NOT TITLE WETLAND [02:30:01] SUBMERGED LAND IS YOU GET ADDITIONAL AREA. OKAY. WHEN YOU SAY IT'S NOT TIDAL WETLAND, IT'S LOW LOW WATER. IT IS CHANNEL WATER OF LOW. OKAY. YEAH. THAT'S, WE'D BE GAINING FROM, THAT'S CORRECT. SO RIGHT NOW, THE AREA IS BASICALLY MEAN, MEAN LOW WATER. YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IN SOME, AND THEN, AND I ENVISION AS TIME GOES ON, MORE GOES ON AS IT CREEPS TO THE WEST MAYBE, AND IT BUILDS THE MARSH BASICALLY. SO THAT'S WHERE THE 4.69 IS. THAT'S ACTUALLY CORRECT. MEAN LOW WATER RIGHT NOW, BUT YOU'RE GONNA BUILD IT UP. CORRECT. GOTCHA. UH, THE AREA YOU JUST POINTED AT, WHICH WOULD BE A PRIORITY. CORRECT. LET'S ASSUME THAT WE GIVE YOU THE PERMIT. UH, WOULD YOU START THERE AND SEE HOW THAT WORKED? AND THEN MOVE ON TO THE NEXT PRIORITY? IN OTHER WORDS, IS THE PLANS TO DO 30% THIS YEAR? 30%, 30%, AND THEN 10, 10% VERY REASONABLY DEPENDING UPON FUNDING AVAILABILITY. BUT IT WILL START RIGHT THERE NO MATTER WHAT. IF YOU GET A DOLLAR CORRECT, THAT'S WHERE IT'S GOING. OKAY. OKAY. IT IS GONNA START IN THE NORTHERN AREA THAT WE'VE USED, BEING AT HIGH HIGHEST RISK. ALRIGHT. THIS CANNOT BE DONE IN TWO YEARS, UH, CONSTRUCTION. UH, SO WHATEVER WORK NOT COMPLETED IN THE TWO YEARS, YOU'D HAVE TO COME BACK AND REAPPLY FOR THE REMAINDER OF IT, WHICH IS WHY I ASKED FOR AS LONG A TIMELINE AS POSSIBLE IN YOUR PERMIT. YEAH, WE CAN, WE COULD PROBABLY PERMIT IT FOR AS LONG AS VM CS ARE FIVE YEARS. WE COULD GO THAT LONG IF WE DECIDED TO. WELL, I MEAN, WHAT I WAS THINKING IS IF THAT'S WHERE WE WANT START, UH, THEN, AND THEY START THERE AND THEY COME TO FIND IT'S NOT WORKING, I HOPE THEY DON'T CONTINUE TO SPEND MONEY JUST FOR THE PROJECT. FAIR POINT. I, I GUESS THAT'S, THAT'S A GOOD POINT, MR. WORD. THAT GOES BACK TO WHAT I TALKED ABOUT, PERFORMANCE BENCHMARKS, THAT SOMEHOW YOU SEE IT SAYING YOU JUST HAVE AN EXIT OFF THE PROJECT AND IT'S JUST NOT WORKING. IF IT, WELL, WE PROBABLY WOULDN'T RECEIVE THE ADDITIONAL FUNDING IF THE PROJECT'S NOT WORKING, RIGHT. YES. THAT'S, YEAH. UM, TO, TO DO ANOTHER PHASE. I, I THINK MAYBE IN TERMS OF TRYING TO GET EVERYBODY A COMFORT LEVEL HERE, THAT MAYBE IF THOSE THINGS CAN BE PUT OUT ON A PIECE OF PAPER, I KNOW IT MIGHT BE VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE WE JUST TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW THIS BARRIER REALLY IT'S GONNA BEHAVE. BUT MAYBE WE CAN PUT SOMETHING DOWN LIKE THAT THAT WOULD BE USEFUL. POSSIBLY THE FUNDING OR THE, UH, PHASING PLAN. YEAH. THE PERFORMANCE CRITERIA AND WHAT WE, UH, YOU KNOW, WELL, THE PERFORMANCE CRITERIA ARE IN THE APPLICATION IN TERMS OF THE PLANTING AND THE ONE YEAR WARRANTY, BUT THE OPPOSITE OF THE MONITORING AND HOW IT'S WORKING, HOW IT'S GOING, BASICALLY MONITORING IS IN THE PLAN AS WELL. THE PART THAT'S NOT IN THERE THAT YOU SPOKE TO IS THE PHASING PLAN. UM, AND THAT WASN'T, QUITE FRANKLY, WE WERE TRYING TO GO BACK AND APPLY FOR THE WHOLE ENCHILADA AND IT TURNED OUT THAT THAT WASN'T GOING TO, WASN'T GONNA PASS MUSTER. SO WE REDUCED THE DOLLAR AMOUNT. SO IN OTHER WORDS, IF WE APPROVE, YOU STILL DON'T GET THE 20 MILLION. CORRECT. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. YOU GET A PORTION OF IT, BUT I IMAGINE IF WE APPROVE AFTER WE APPROVE, IT MIGHT HELP IN TERMS OF FUNDING DOWN THE ROAD SINCE MAYBE, UM, YEAH. I MEAN ALL, ALL OF THE ENTITIES, YEAH, THEY LIKE TO SEE THAT. RIGHT. ALL OF THE ENTITIES NEED TO APPROVE IT IF THE PROJECT DOESN'T MOVE FORWARD. YEAH. THANK YOU. WELL, I, I'VE GOT A GOTCHA QUESTION FOR EMILY . UH OH. UM, IF THEMS HAD TO WRITE A REPORT ON A PROJECT LIKE THIS FOR SOMEONE IN THE, SAY I WANTED TO DO IT ON MY PRIVATE PROPERTY, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT WOULD THE REPORT SAY? I WOULD HOPE OUR REPORT WOULD SAY EXACTLY WHAT OUR REPORT DID SAY, UM, THAT MEGAN WROTE LAST WEEK. UM, AGAIN, THAT IS WHY I WAS PART OF THIS PROJECT, WAS TO TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE CONSIDERING EVERYTHING WE WOULD CONSIDER ON ANY OTHER PROJECT ALONG THE WAY. MM-HMM . UM, [02:35:02] I WOULD THEN ASK IF YOU HAD AN EXTRA 15 MILLION SO WE COULD DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE TOO. . OKAY. ALRIGHT. UM, YEAH, I MEAN THAT I, I REALIZE THAT THIS IS, YOU GUYS ARE IN A DIFFICULT, DIFFICULT SPOT THAT I DON'T ENVY, UM, THAT THIS IS A, THIS IS A, A UNIQUE PROJECT. UM, IT'S NOT PROTECTING A SINGLE PARCEL OR STRETCH OF PARCELS. UM, AND THEREFORE IT COMES WITH VERY DIFFERENT CONSIDERATIONS. UM, AND YOU KNOW, WE, WE ARE TYPICALLY BROUGHT IN ON THOSE PROJECTS THAT ARE STRANGE . YEAH, TRUE. UM, AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD HAVE TO CONSIDER ALL OF THE, THE IMPACTS AS WELL MM-HMM . AND, YOU KNOW, THOSE, THOSE DO INCLUDE NOT JUST THOSE THAT ARE IN YOUR PURVIEW, UM, AS THE WETLANDS BOARD, BUT THE SEQUI, THE AV N UM, THAT WE HAVE TRIED TO, TO INCORPORATE INTO THE PROJECT. GOT ALRIGHT. THANK YOU. YOU GO AHEAD AND ASK, I JUST THOUGHT, WELL, YEAH, I THINK WHAT I'M HEARING FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE IS THAT YOU JUST HAVE THIS ONE REPLANNING ONE YEAR AND, AND I REALIZE THIS MIGHT BE DIFFICULT TO REQUEST, BUT IS THERE SOME WAY THAT IN FUNDING THAT HASN'T GOTTEN YET, THAT THERE COULD BE A MODIFICATION SAYING WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ANOTHER PLANNING TWO YEARS OUT OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD MAKE PEOPLE FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE THAT WE'RE THESE MARSHES ARE GONNA BE MAINTAINED A LITTLE BIT LONGER AND GUARANTEED, UH, I'M SURE YOU PROBABLY THOUGHT ABOUT THAT AND PROBABLY THE FUNDING'S DIFFICULT, BUT I'M JUST SAYING IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING I THINK EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO SEE MAYBE AND GIVE US A LITTLE MORE COMFORT LEVEL IN TERMS OF WHAT THIS PROJECT MAY OR MAY NOT DO. SO ANY, ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO SAY TO THAT. YEAH. UM, SO YEAH, FUNDING IS CERTAINLY THE, A BIG HANG UP. UM, AND WHAT DIFFERENT FUNDING SOURCES ARE WILLING TO FUND, UM, YOU KNOW, IN THEIR PROGRAMS FOR THIS FUNDING IN PARTICULAR, IT, IT IS THAT INITIAL FUNDING AND MONITORING AND THEN, BUT THAT'S IT. THEY DON'T FUND THIS PARTICULAR POT OF FUNDS IS NOT FOR ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT. WE ARE EXPLORING ALL, YOU KNOW, AVENUES, WHETHER IT BE OTHER ADDITIONAL FEDERAL FUNDING FROM OTHER SOURCES OR THE SAME SOURCE IN THE FUTURE. UH, PRIVATE ENTITIES, IF ANYBODY KNOWS ANYBODY, LET ME KNOW. UM, BUT WE, THERE ARE USUALLY SO MANY RESTRICTIONS ON THE FEDERAL GRANTS, AT LEAST ON WHAT THEY WILL FUND. THEY DON'T, THEY'RE NOT THE ONES BUILDING THE PROJECT, SO THEY DON'T HAVE AS MUCH PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE OF, HEY LOOK, THESE THINGS HAPPEN IN PARTICULARLY IN THE COASTAL ENVIRONMENT. THEY WANT TO SEE YOU PUSHING THE ENVELOPE AND TRYING THINGS. UM, AND SO THEY, THEY'RE NOT, THEY'RE NOT THE ONES SITTING THERE PERMITTING. COULD YOU GET A NON-GOVERNMENT, UH, GROUP AND APPLY TO THEM FOR, FOR THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT PLANTING? YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE, I I, I DON'T KNOW HOW I WOULD WRITE IT, BUT IT'S LIKE A, WELL, I WOULD JUST WRITE IT SAY AFTER TWO YEARS, GET SOME OTHER ORGANIZATION THAT'D BE WILLING TO FUND A PLANTING OF THIS AREA. I, AND OF COURSE WHAT JUMPS AMONG LINE IS NATURE CONSERVANCY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT IS THAT, IS THAT DOABLE? IS THAT EVEN PERMITTABLE WITH WHAT THE FEDERAL BUDGET IS AND ONE THEY GRANT FOR US TO APPLY TO OTHER SOURCES? YES, YES. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY PERMITABLE. OKAY. YES. ALRIGHT. YES. WE CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT WE WOULD GET THOSE FILES. OH, WELL, YES, I UNDERSTAND. BUT I'M JUST, I, I, AGAIN, GOING BACK TO WHAT I SAID, I JUST THINK IN TERMS OF COMFORT LEVEL TO EVERYBODY INVOLVED, IF YOU HAD THAT SECOND PLANNING MAYBE TWO OR THREE YEARS OUT, WHATEVER IT MAY BE, IT WOULD BE A BENCHMARK SAYING, OH, OKAY, WE'RE, WE'RE PROGRESSING AND WE HAVEN'T, WE'RE NOT LOSING EVERYTHING. WE'RE GONNA REPLANT IT BASICALLY, IF THAT'S THE WORST CASE SCENARIO. YEAH. AND, AND DO KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE, THIS IS A RELATIVELY SMALL AREA IN THE TERMS OF THIS SYSTEM. IT'S LARGE FOR WHAT YOU ARE TYPICALLY DEALING WITH WITH TYPICAL PROPERTIES. UM, AND THERE IS MARSH ON BOTH SIDES NORTH AND SOUTH OF IT, WHICH MEANS THAT THERE ARE SEED STOCKS. UM, AND SO THERE WILL BE NATURAL RECOLONIZATION AS WELL, REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO. UM, SO IT WON'T BE A JUST BARE SAND FOREVER, REGARDLESS OF IF THAT'S HOW IT WAS LEFT. YOU KNOW, LIKE WE SEE ON THAT FLOOD DELTA THAT WAS BARE SAND, IT IS NOW A MARSH ALL NATURALLY WITHOUT PLANTING. WELL, FOR DUE RESPECT, THAT'S NOT REALLY GUARANTEED THAT FAIR THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. IT ABSOLUTELY WAS A GIANT EXPERIMENT. YEAH. IT ABSOLUTELY IS NOT GUARANTEED NOTHING, NOTHING AS THE, UH, FOR SURE THE REPLANTING AND THE THREE TO FIVE YEAR. UH, THANK YOU. UH, YOU HAD ANOTHER QUESTION. UH, AND NOT, NOT PROMISE YOU NOT BEING DISRESPECTFUL, BUT I THINK IF, IF, IF I AS A POSITIVE INDIVIDUAL, UH, WAS GONNA [02:40:01] PUT SAND OVER A LOW MARSH OR A HIGH MARSH EITHER, UM, I WOULD CERTAINLY THINK THAT THEM WOULD SAY THAT I'VE GOTTA REPLANT IT AND IT'S GOTTA HAVE A, A THREE YEAR PLAN. I CAN'T SEE THAT NOT HAPPENING AND, AND I'VE GOT MARSH AND I GUARANTEE IF I I WANT IT TAKEN. I GUARANTEE IF I PLANTED IT, UH, JUST FILLED IT IN, WHICH I DON'T WANNA DO, BUT SAYING, BUT THAT'S, THEY WERE THINGS THAT WERE SETTING PRECEDENT ALSO. YEAH. AND UM, LIKE I JUST BEEN, YOU KNOW, WHILE AGO ABOUT ANOTHER STATE PROJECT, BUT UM, BECAUSE THE MARSH IS VEGETATING OUT, ME, THAT PLANT ON THAT MARSH IS CRITICAL. THE OTHER ONE ABOUT THE, UH, IN THE LOW, UH, SUB ACQUIS IN YOUR BUILDING IT THAT'S DIFFERENT. BUT WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE MARSH, YOU'RE DISJOINTED BY PUTTING THE DIRT ON TOP OF IT. THAT TO ME IS THAT'S WHERE IT'S CRITICAL, NOT, NOT WHAT YOU'RE CREATING ON THE LOW, THE UH, UM, THOSE LAC THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT DIDN'T HAVE MARSH ON IT. THERE'S NO GRASS THERE. BUT THE PART THAT HAS THE GRASS TO ME THAT IT'S CRITICAL. AND LIKE I SAY, I KNOW IT'S NOT AS DONE AS SMARTLY AS PROBABLY ONE A FOOT INSTEAD OF EVER. AND LIKE I SAY, HOPEFULLY IT WOULD TAKE AND, AND GROW AND BE AS AND, AND I DO BELIEVE THAT. BUT THE PART ABOUT THE ONE YEAR NURSERY THING THAT'S NOT EVEN SAY WHEN IF IT DOES DIE, THAT, THAT YOU DON'T, SAYING YOU DON'T, EVEN IF THEY, THEY GIVE YOU THE, THE PLANTS BACK, YOU'RE NOT, YOU'RE SAYING YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE FUNDING TO GO GO PLANT IT BACK . YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? THEY, THEY MIGHT, THEY MIGHT WARRANT THEIR PLANT, BUT THAT'S NOT TELLING US THAT IT'S GONNA BE REPLANTED BECAUSE OF THE MONEY. BUT I THINK THE PART ABOUT US THAT, UM, WHEN YOU FILL SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY VEGETATED MARSHLAND, I THINK WE WANT TO STAY VEGETATING MARKET, MA'AM, TO BE CLEAR, WE WOULD LIKE THAT TOO. MOVE . YEAH. AND THAT'S WHERE I, THAT'S WHERE I WANT TO HEAD TO. YEAH. SO THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO HEAR. SO I'M SAYING IS, SO AT, AT THAT POINT, NOT THE PART THAT YOU'RE GOING, THAT YOU'RE BUILDING UP THE, UH, LOW SUB TOBACCO, BUT THE PART THAT'S ALREADY VEGETATED, IF YOU WOULD GUARANTEE US UP THAT VEGETATED THAT IT FOR A THREE YEAR PLAN, I THINK WE'D BE A WHOLE LOT HAPPIER. I AGREE, BUT I DON'T THINK WE, I JUST USED THE WORD GUARANTEE. THERE IS NO GUARANTEE. BUT I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. I MEAN REALLY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HERE TO APPROVE THE PERMIT. WE'RE NOT REALLY CONCERNED ALL THAT MUCH ABOUT THE FISCAL ISSUE. AND IF IT, IF THE GETTING TO THE PERMIT AND ONE CRITERIA IS THAT WE NEED A THREE YEAR MONITORING PLAN WITH REPLANTING, THEN THAT'S GONNA BE OUR DECISION THAT WAS COVERED. AND THE IDEA OF BEING, I THINK THAT WOULD GIVE EVERYBODY HERE A COMFORT LEVEL AND DEPEND, I MEAN, I REALIZE WE HEAR ABOUT THE MONEY ASPECT, BUT FOR US, THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD APPROVE IF WE WERE GONNA APPROVE IT. AND THAT WOULD MAKE I THINK EVERYBODY MORE COMFORTABLE DO WHAT THEY CHOOSE. YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, SIR. ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR THIS LADY? FOR THE MOMENT? DON'T LEAVE THIS. CAN I REPHRASE? GO AHEAD. NO, SIR. I WAS GONNA SAY, CAN I RESPOND TO MR. ICK? WELL, I'M SORRY MA'AM. CAN I RESPOND TO ABSOLUTELY. UM, DON'T HOLD BACK. IF YOU, UM, DECIDE TO, TO REQUIRE A, I MEAN FOR WE, WE, THE MONITORING IS WELL IN HAND THAT THAT'S NOT A QUESTION THAT'S HAPPENING REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU REQUIRE. UM, BUT AS FAR AS REPLANTING, I WOULD JUST ASK THAT YOU MAYBE DON'T USE YOUR TYPICAL LANGUAGE AND BE, ALLOW US TO BE FLEXIBLE KNOWING THAT WE ARE ON A BARRIER ISLAND SO THAT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, WE PLANT EVERYTHING IS LOOKING GOOD ONE YEAR AND A HALF, HALF YEARS A STORM COMES OR A CHANNEL MOVEMENT, THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT'S EASY. THAT'S EASY. OH, OH YEAH. YEAH. I THINK VERY GOOD POINT AND EASILY DONE. MM-HMM. NO PROBLEM. UH, WE, WE'LL FIGURE THAT OUT. BUT, UH, MONITORING PLAN IN HAND, THE MONITORING PLAN IS INCLUDED IN THE APPLICATION ONE YEAR. UH, FIVE WE PROPOSED, WE PROPOSED FIVE. WHEN DID YOU SAY SIR? I SAID THERE'S NO REPLANTING PLAN. THEY CORRECT. RESPONDED THE COURT MONITORING HAVE, THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF WHAT RECOMMENDED PROP COMPENSATORY MITIGATION FOR THE LACK OF AN ADAPTIVE MANAGEMENT PLAN. I'D BE HAPPY TO SUMMARIZE THE CO CORRESPONDENCE. THE SHORT TREND YOU'RE GONNA BE ASKED THE, THE PHASING, I'M SURE THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED. UH, WHEN THE SAND NOURISHMENT WAS BEING PUMPED IN, WOULD THE ENTIRE AREA BE PUMPED IN OR JUST THE AREA OF THE PHASE? JUST THE AREA OF THE PHASE. OKAY. YEAH, IT WOULD BE, WE'RE DOING THE PROJECT ON A SMALLER AREA THAN THE FULL AREA, BUT DOING THE PROJECT AS IF WE WERE NEVER COMING BACK TO DO ANY OTHER PROJECT IS NOT, WE'RE LEAVING A BUNCH OF STANDS STOCKPILED THERE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. NOW I'VE GOT A QUESTION. WHAT WOULD IT COST TO, UH, DO THE PLANS ONE, YOU KNOW, ONE FOOT, WHAT WOULD IT [02:45:01] COST TO DO ON AREA THAT SIZE? WHAT WOULD IT COST TO BE THAT PLANTING? I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWER TO THAT. I'VE TO BUDGET. SO WE DON'T KNOW. OKAY. NO, WE KNOW. I JUST DON'T HAVE THE DATA IN FRONT OF ME. WE KNOW WHAT IT IS IN PRIVATE. THEY, THEY ARE ASKED, UM, BUT I EXPECTED IT'S ALL RIGHT. AND THEN MOST OF IT'S LABOR. IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT REALLY THE PLANTS, IT'S THE LABOR. LABOR'S A BIG PART OF THAT. AND, UH, TRANSPLANTING SIR, UH, WE DO IT ALL THE TIME IN PRIVATE, PULL IT OUT, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO PULL X AND YOU CAN PUT IT BACK ONE BY ONE. AND WE ARE PROPOSING TRANSPLANTS OF LOW MARSH AREAS OF DOING IT IN SORT OF BLOCKS SO THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE INDIVIDUAL PLANT STEM, BUT YOU GET ALL OF THE FUNGUS AND BACTERIA AND EVERYTHING THAT'S IN THE SOIL AS WELL. SO WE ARE YEAH. ARE PROPOSING TRANSPLANTING LIKE A 12 INCH YEP. YES. BLOCK, SQUARE BLOCK. YEP. I GUESS THE FINAL POINT IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T WANT MITIGATION SOMEWHERE ELSE. I PREFER WE, WE PLANT CEDAR ISLAND. THAT'S WHAT WE WANT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO MAINTAIN. 'CAUSE THAT'S PART OF THE OVERALL EXPERIMENT. SO WE, WE DON'T WANT MITIGATION SOMEWHERE ELSE. THAT'S NOT CA SO WHERE I'M GOING AT RIGHT NOW, JUST TO, I, I, I, AND I HEARD THE MONEY ASPECT, BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY A CONCERN. I THINK IF WE WANT TO TRY TO MAYBE APPROVE THIS, WE'RE GONNA NEED A THREE YEAR REPLANTING, UM, MODIFICATION EXCEPT FOR STORM ROLLOVER. WE UNDERSTAND, WE UNDERSTAND THAT. WE GET THAT. OBVIOUSLY THERE'S NO NEED TO REPLANT IF IT'S GROWING. OKAY. SO THAT'S A KEY THING THAT GETS A LITTLE BIT, THAT'S A TOUGH, THE, THE, THE STORM THING, UH, OBVIOUSLY, UM, UH, WOULD, WOULD ALSO IF IT WAS PRIVATE MM-HMM . UH, STORM COMES ALONG. THAT'S PART OF UNFORTUNATELY WHERE WE CHOOSE TO LIVE. UH, I SAY UNFOR, EXCUSE ME, I DON'T WANNA LIVE ANYWHERE ELSE , UH, BUT THERE IS A THREE TO FIVE YEAR IN THERE. OKAY. AND YOU'RE WILLING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES WITHIN MEANS, AND WE'RE DEALING WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. SO ANY SMALL BUSINESSMAN SITTING AROUND THIS TABLE, UH, WE DON'T NEED TO GET INTO THAT, DO WE? THANK YOU, MA'AM. UM, MR. VAL, MR. VALIANT, UH, I ASSUME, UH, SO YOU WRITING SOME NOTES AND LOOKING AT THE CLOCK, SO NO, THE CLOCK CLOCK'S GOOD. I JUST HAD NO IDEA WHAT TIME WAS. I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE THING. YEAH, SIR. AND THEN IT'S ALL YOURS. YEAH. THE LITTLE AREA THAT THEY PLANNED TO START IN RIGHT THERE. YEAH. IF YOU WERE THAT'S RIGHT. IF YOU WERE FORCED TO SAY, OKAY. UH, HOW DOES THAT LITTLE AREA RIGHT THERE AFFECT YOU PERSONALLY? I WOULD SAY THAT THE DATA ON VEGETATION IS SEVEN YEARS OLD, AND THERE'S CURRENTLY FIVE YEAR CEDAR TREES IN THAT AREA. IF YOU READ DR. SNYDER'S LETTER, YES. IT'S JUST NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE TO ACCURATE. UM, SO WHAT I SAY TO THAT IS THAT I'M HAPPY THE APPLICANTS HAVE SAID THIS IS A EXPERIMENT TO SIMULATE A LARGE OVER WASH EVENT. AGAIN, WE'RE NOT TAKING BARREN AREA AND PLANTING IT. WE ARE DUMPING A LARGE AMOUNT OF SAND ON IT TO KILL IT, TO EXPERIMENT ON HOW THE REPLANTINGS DUE THAT WE MAY OR MAY NOT REPLANT. WHY NOT JUST LEAVE IT IN ITS STATE? UM, I HAVE SOME PICTURES THERE. YOU'LL SEE DR. SCHNEIDER FROM VIM STANDING IN FRONT OF A GOLDEN PASTURE OF LOW MARSH. IT'S NOT, THERE IS NO GAME. THIS PROJECT SEEKS TO COVER IT AT A DEPTH THAT WILL KILL EVERYTHING AND THEN SEE HOW THE PLANTINGS GO. I, I QUESTION THE, THE GAINS IN KNOWLEDGE IN SCIENCE FROM THAT KIND OF EXPERIMENT. THIS SHOULD BE AN EXPERIMENT ON HOW WELL IT HAS RECOVERED. UM, AGAIN, THEY'RE SIMULATING A LARGE OVER WASH. THEY'RE NOT PLANTING A PLANT IN A BARREN MUDFLAT. UM, AND AGAIN, ON THE SUB AQUEOUS CREATION THAT IS COMPLETELY INVALID BECAUSE THE MEAN LOW WATERMARK, IF YOU WALK FROM THE DUNES TO BURTON'S BAY, THE MEAN LOW WATERMARK IS WELL BEYOND THE PROJECT. AND I'VE ATTACHED A PICTURE OF THAT ONE ON THE TOP. THERE IS MY DAD WALKING IN THE, UM, DEVELOPING OYSTER REEF THERE. AS YOU CAN SEE, THAT'S COMPLETELY DRY GROUND. THAT'S THE MARSH ON THE RIGHT THERE. SO THE OCEAN IS TO THE RIGHT OF THAT PICTURE. SO THERE'S NO CREATION OR CONVERSION OF SUB AQUEOUS INTO WETLANDS. THERE'S NO GAIN OF NEW WETLANDS. IT'S AN INTERTIDAL OYSTER REEF BY EVERY DEFINITION. UM, BACK TO YOU, GEORGE. YEAH, AND I, I THINK THE KIND OF THE, YEAH, [02:50:01] FEEL FREE TO LOOK AT THESE. YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THAT'S VERY DENSE. THAT'S NOT A NURSERY PLANT EVERY 12, I THINK IT'S 19 CENTIMETERS. UH, THERE'S A COUPLE HUNDRED PLANTS PER SQUARE FOOT. UM, ADDITIONALLY, YOU KNOW, ANYONE IN A SMALL BUSINESS HERE UNDERSTANDS SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES AND WHATNOT. I JUST, THE IDEA THAT THE CONTRACTOR HASN'T BEEN NAMED, AND THIS WOULD BE THE LARGEST SORT OF PROJECT OF THIS SCALE IN THE TIMEFRAME THAT IT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, LIKE CONTRACTOR FORGETS TO GET THE PLANTS ON THE TRUCK ONE DAY AND THEN IT'S PIPING PULL OVERSEAS IN THE NEXT, THEN WE GOT AN EXTRA FIVE MONTHS. IT'S, IT'S NOT GOING THE STORE WHERE YOU CAN BUY THIS AMOUNT OF PLANTS OFF THE SHELF DOESN'T EXIST. UM, SO I THINK THESE PICTURES REALLY SHOW, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO CREATION. UH, THAT DREDGE AREA IS THE NATIONAL WETLANDS INDEX MAP SHOWING THE DREDGE AREA AS WETLANDS. UH, THE APPLICANT FAILED TO DESCRIBE IT AS THIS, UM, I THINK I'VE SORT OF SAID MY PIECE ON, YOU KNOW, THIS IS AN EXPERIMENT TO SIMULATE A LARGE OVER WASH. IF I SAY ANYTHING INCORRECT, THE APPLICANTS CAN INTERRUPT ME. BUT SIMULATING A LARGE OVER WASH IS A DESTRUCTIVE EVENT THAT CAUSES LOSS OF WETLANDS. THIS IS A MANMADE DECISION TO SIMULATE THAT EVENT. THERE IS CURRENTLY A DENT SUFFICIENT WETLAND THERE. WHY? WHAT EXPERIMENT CAN BE GAINED FROM THIS ISN'T COMING TO REPLANT A BREACH THAT DEPOSITED A FOOT OF SAND. THIS IS DEPOSITING A FOOT OF SAND AND REPLANTING IT ON AN AREA THAT DR. SCHNEIDER, I BELIEVE TENURE DIRECTOR OF VIMS RE LAB, WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT, SAYS, CURRENTLY BETTER RESIST STORM SEARCH. THERE'S NO QUANTIFICATION OF HOW MUCH THE EXISTING MARSH FAILS TO PROVIDE THIS PROTECTION. IT SIMPLY SAYS, WE WANNA SEE WHAT HAPPENS IF WE SIMULATE A LARGE OVER WASH AND THEN REPLANT IT AND NOT DO ANYTHING TO FIX IT. IT'S NOT FIXING AN AREA THAT NEEDS FIXING. IT IS BY THEIR WORDS, KILLING THE AREA THAT EXISTS TO PLANT IT WITH SPARSE VEGETATION AND MAYBE FIX IT IF THE PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION IN FIVE YEARS IS FUNDING THINGS THE SAME AS IT WAS IN, YOU KNOW, WHEN THIS PROJECT GOT FUNDED. UH, SO I THINK MOST RELEVANT TO THIS BOARD, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF HIS CORRESPONDENT WITH MS. JAR TRAN HERE. SO IF I SPEAK OUT OF TURN, UH, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. BUT IN THE CORRESPONDENCE WITH JUSTIN BROWN OF THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS, AND, UH, IT TOOK A LOT OF DIGGING 'CAUSE IT'S, IT'S A BUNCH OF EMAILS, BUT THE MOST OFF THE BAT, YOU KNOW, THEY ASK THE QUESTION, WA APR IS NOT BEHIND THIS PROJECT. WHAT IS THE PROTECTION GOALS? AND HE, THEY SAY, PROTECTION OF WA APR IS NOT A PRIMARY GOAL OF THIS PROJECT. IT'S BASICALLY AN EXPERIMENT TO SEE IF WE CAN SLOW A BREACH DOWN, WHEN'S THEIR NEXT BREACH HAPPENING? NO ATTEMPT TO QUANTIFY THAT. THERE'S A LOT OF BACK AND FORTH ON THE LACK OF PLAN TO FIX THIS. AND I THINK, UH, THIS IS ALL IN THE RECORD, BUT, YOU KNOW, LOTS OF EMAILS BACK AND FORTH. THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS COMMEND RECOMMENDED COMPENSATORY MITIGATION FOR THREE SCENARIOS OF THIS PROJECT. THE DREDGING IN THE IMPACTS THE SHALLOW WATER HABITAT, THEY RECOMMEND A COMPENSATORY MITIGATION. AND THE APPLICANT'S RESPONSE TO ALL, EVERY SINGLE CLAIM OF COMPENSATORY MITIGATION IS THAT THIS PROJECT CREATES NEW WETLANDS THAT IS UNTRUE. THIS PROJECT REQUIRES REMOVING AN INTERTIDAL OYSTER REEF. THERE IS NO NEW WETLANDS BEING CREATED. SO THE ARMY CORPS WANTS COMPENSATORY MITIGATION FOR THE DREDGING. NEXT IS THE INFILL AREA WHERE THEY SAY THEY'RE CREATING NEW WETLANDS. THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEER RECOMMENDS COMPENSATORY MITIGATION FOR THE LOSS OF SUB AQUEOUS HABITAT. THIS IS STILL UNDER THE APPLICANT'S CATEGORIZATION OF IT AS SUB AQUEOUS. IT IS NOT SUB AQUEOUS. IT IS AN OYSTER REEF THAT IF YOU BUY A PERMIT, THE VMRC WHEN THEY'RE OF MATURE SIZE SAYS YOU CAN GO HARVEST THEM. THIS IS A DOWNGRADE OF ECOLOGICAL AND PUBLIC GOOD TO REMOVE THE OYSTERS, TO PUT SAND THERE TO DO AN EXPERIMENT. AND THE FINAL COMPENSATORY MITIGATION WAS PROPOSED DUE TO THE LACK OF AN ACTIVE MANAGEMENT PLAN SHOULD THE PROJECT NOT MEET ITS STATED SUCCESS CRITERIA. UM, THESE WERE EMAILS IN MAR APRIL TO MAY OF 2025. UH, I WISH. SO BASICALLY THE LAST SITUATION FOR MITIGATION, THEY SAID, YOU NEED TO DEFINE SOME GOALS FOR THIS PROJECT. YOU NEED TO STATE IF THEY'RE MEETING THOSE GOALS. YOU NEED TO PROVIDE PLANS FOR, I WANNA SAY EROSION. IT'S ALL IN MY LETTER, BUT EROSION SEDIMENT, INVASIVE SPECIES, COLONIZATION, A NUMBER OF CONDITIONS THAT WOULD MEAN THIS PROJECT HAS NOT MET ITS GOAL. UM, THE APPLICANT HAS OFFERED TO FLY A DRONE OVER THE SITE FOR I BELIEVE, THREE TO FIVE YEARS. THERE IS NOTHING IN WRITING ABOUT FIXING THIS [02:55:01] IF THE EXPERIMENT DOESN'T WORK. SO THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS HAS ALREADY REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT, HEY, YOU CAN'T KILL ALL THIS AND NOT HAVE A PLAN TO FIX IT WITHOUT PROVIDING COMPENSATORY MITIGATION. I MEAN, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THIS IS A MANMADE DISTURBANCE OF VEGETATED MARSH. I THINK ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT, THERE'S, THEY'RE NOT PLANTING A BEAR AREA. THEY'RE NOT COMING BEHIND A BREACH AND PLANTING BARE SAND TO SIMULATE A LARGE OVER WASH EVENT. YOU HAVE TO PUMP ENOUGH SAND TO KILL EVERYTHING UNDERNEATH OF IT. THAT'S A MANMADE DISTURBANCE. I'M NOT GONNA DEBATE IF THE NEXT PLANTS ARE BETTER OR AN EXTRA EIGHT INCHES WILL SLOW THE STORM SURGE. IT IS A MANMADE LOSS OF WETLANDS. MAYBE IT GETS PLANTED. MAYBE THEY, I, I HOPE I'M WRONG. AND THERE'S 10 MILLION OF THE NEW PLANTS OUT THERE THE NEXT YEAR. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER REMAINS, THIS IS A DECISION TO PERMIT A COMPLETE KILLING OF THE EXISTING MARCH BY WHICH I, WHICH I BELIEVE HAS A EXACT PRICE PER SQUARE FOOT. SO, YOU KNOW, CONTRACTORS GUY CALLS IN SICK, THEY DON'T WATER THE PLANTS ON THE RIGHT DAY, THEY'RE ALL DEAD. WE HAVE A PILE OF SAND WHERE THERE USED TO BE 1 MILLION PLANTS, I BELIEVE FOR THIS BOARD. THAT IS BY DEFINITION A DISTURBANCE OF VEGETATED WETLANDS. SO ADDITIONALLY, YOU KNOW, THE ARMY, ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEER HITS THEM ON INVASIVE SPECIES COLONIZATION. UH, THE ACCURATE, THE APPLICANT'S DATA WAS SO OLD THAT THEY DIDN'T SAY RAG MIGHT WAS IN THE AREA. THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEER ASKED WHAT'S THE PLAN FOR RAG MIGHTY? THEY RECENTLY UPDATED IT TO SAY THEY'RE GONNA DIG IT OUT. I THINK ANYBODY THAT'S TRIED TO ERADICATE RAG MIGHTY KNOWS THAT THE MORE YOU SCREW WITH IT, THE MORE IT COMES BACK. AND ALSO IN VIMS LITERATURE, UM, THE PLANTS THAT SURVIVE IN DIFFERENT ZONES, UH, I'M GONNA CALL IT AN EMERGING HIGH MARSH, UH, FRAG MIGHTY THRIVES IN EMERGING HIGH MARSH. AND IF YOU LOOK OUT THERE NOW, THE EXISTING LOW MARSH, IF YOU GO ABOUT A FOOT, YOU RUN INTO THE FRAG MIGHTY. SO WE'RE GONNA HAVE AN UNVEGETATED AREA AT, AT EYE LEVEL, THE EXACT LEVEL THAT THE FRAG MIGHT EXISTS OUT THERE. SO IF THESE PLANTS DON'T WORK, WE ALL KNOW FRAG MIGHTY CHOKES OUT THE CHOKES OUT THE ROOTS OF THE, THE EXISTING PLANTS, BLOCKS THE SHADE MAKES A BIG MESS FOR THE NATIVE THINGS. UM, SO, YOU KNOW, THE PLAN IS CURRENTLY TO DIG OUT. IT'S, IT'S A LOT, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD COST $20 MILLION TO DIG OUT HALF OF IT IF YOU HAD, YOU KNOW, THE GOING RATE FOR LANDSCAPE LABOR. UM, SO YEAH, AND ALSO THE PLANTS THEY'RE PLANTING, UH, PER THE VIMS GUIDE, THEY LIKE, UH, ABOUT 30 PARTS PER THOUSAND SALINITY. THE WATER AND BIRDS BAY IS ABOUT 35 PARTS PER SALINITY. THE PLAN IS ACTUALLY TO LUG A PUMP AND WATER THESE NEW PLANTS. UH, HOW THAT PRESENTS AN UPGRADE OVER THE EXISTING MARSH IS JUST BEYOND ME. UM, SO YEAH, I MEAN, BIMS LITERATURE, UH, INFREQUENTLY FLOODING, UH, SO I THINK THE SPARTINA PAT PATENTS, THE HIGH MARSH PATENTS, THEY EXIST JUST AT THE TOP OF IT. SO, YOU KNOW, WE'VE ALL HAD, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE HIGHER LANDSCAPER AND THEY DON'T REALLY GET THE PLAN HERE AND OH NO, THEY WATER THESE PLANTS WITH A LITTLE BIT TOO MUCH SALT WATER THAT DAY. THEY'RE ALL DEAD. UM, THAT'S JUST THE REALITY OF PLANTING THESE SALT MARSHES. AND YOU CAN'T NAME A CONTRACTOR THAT HAS DONE A JOB 10% THE SIZE OF THIS ON A BARRIER ISLAND IN A SALT MARSH. IT DOESN'T EXIST. THERE'S JUST NOBODY WITH A NURSERY WITH THIS MANY PLANTS IN IT. UH, THEY'VE REFERENCED THE CONTRACTOR THAT DID POPULAR ISLAND UP IN MARYLAND, BUT THAT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. IT'S NINE PARTS PER THOUSAND SALINITY. IT DOESN'T FLOOD. SO THERE'S NOBODY THAT'S DONE THIS KIND OF WORK BEFORE. IT REALLY HINGES ON A FOREGONE CONCLUSION OF SUCCESS. THANK YOU. UM, I'VE GOT ANOTHER QUESTION. YEAH, PLEASE. FOR MR. HALL. YES. HOW DID THE COUNTY BECOME THE APPLICANT? UM, GOOD QUESTION. ACTUALLY, THAT MAY BE A BETTER QUESTION. I COULD ANSWER THAT. UH, VIMS ASKED THE COUNTY TO BE THE APPLICANT. THE COUNTY DID NOT ASK THE APPLICANT TO BE. THE COUNTY DID NOT ASK VIMS TO BE THE APPLICANT. VIMS CAME TO AIMA COUNTY. IT, THE BOARD OF SUPERVISOR. UM, IT'S SIGNED BY MIKE MASON. SO YES, I WOULD SAY, OKAY, SO THE COUNTY'S BEHIND THIS PROJECT. YES, MIKE MASON SIGNED THE APPLICATION, BUT, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT WENT BOARD OF SUPERVISORS OR NOT? UM, IT DID. IT DID. THEY'RE SAYING IT DID, WHICH I AM QUITE SURE MIKE MASON'S NOT GONNA SIGN UNLESS THE, THE TWO, UH, BEFORE THE BOARD VISOR, THE OS THAT I SPOKE TO, UH, APPROVED. IT WAS APPROVED. BOTH OF 'EM TOLD HIM. OKAY. OKAY. THEN THE OTHER QUESTION IS, LIKE YOU SAY, THE COUNTY'S NOT EXEMPT FROM, IT'S NOT COUNTY OWNED PROPERTY. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT WOULD'VE BEEN EXEMPT IF IT WAS COUNTY OWNED PROPERTY TOO. THERE'S STILL A PORTION OF IN THAT AREA THAT'S EXEMPT THEN, UM, JUST WHERE THE FIVE OR THE THREE OWNERS ARE, UH, [03:00:01] COR YES, THAT IS, THAT'S OUR, THAT'S OUR JURISDICTION IS WHERE THERE'S THREE OWNERS ARE. YES. OKAY. IT'S FOUR OWNERS, I BELIEVE, OR FOUR, NO, EXCUSE ME. INCLUDING NATURE CONSERVANCY. YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT. YEAH. UH, THANK YOU VERY QUICKLY. JUST AS JUST, UH, SOME YEARS AGO, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY, UH, WE ISSUED A PERMIT TO GET RID OF FRAG. EVERYBODY REMEMBER THAT? OR FOR SOME OF YOU TIMES? I DON'T KNOW. UM, HE DID EVERYTHING SPENT, HE HAD ALL THE MONEY THAT HE WANTED ON THIS LITTLE PLACE. MM-HMM . I WAS UP THERE TWO WEEKS AGO AND, UH, I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD ISSUED THE PERMIT FOR A DIFFERENT AREA. THAT'S HOW TALL THE RAG WAS. YEAH. I HAD A SUMMER JOB DIGGING OUT RAG MIGHTY'S AND A LOT OF, UH, LIVING SHORELINE PROJECTS UP IN MARYLAND. I'VE DONE THIS KIND OF WORK ON THE SMALL SCALE, UH, TO HAVE NOT NAMED THE CONTRACTOR YET OR HAVE THESE PLANS. THERE'S IT, THIS WORK. NO ONE'S DONE 10% OF THIS AMOUNT OF WORK BEFORE. UH, THANK YOU, SIR. THANK YOU. WE DON'T NEED TO BEAT IT. THE ABSOLUTE DEATH. WOULD YOU BELIEVE, SIR? WOULD YOU BELIEVE MY NEIGHBOR PLANTED ? NO, SIR. WHERE ARE YOU FROM? EUROPE. YEAH. WHERE ARE YOU FROM? QUIMBEE. DO YOU LIKE YOUR NEIGHBOR, ? HE, HE'S, HE'S DECEASED WOULD SHOOT HIM WITH A, AND I WOULD JUST ADD, I'M JUST LOOKING AT THE SIGNATURE PAGE ACTUALLY. UM, MIKE BASIN SIGNED IT AS WELL AS ROBERT CROCKFORDS CHAIR. OKAY, THANK YOU. THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE EXPECTED. ALRIGHT. UH, I THINK WE'VE BEAT THIS ABOUT AS FAR AS WE CAN BEAT IT. , UH, ANY QUESTIONS? EXCUSE ME. UH, ANYONE ELSE IN THIS ROOM THAT WANTS TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS JPA THAT HAS OR HAS NOT SPOKEN? IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE ELSE WOULD LIKE TO SAY? SIR, YOU GOT ANYTHING ELSE ON YOUR MIND? NO, SIR. DOCTOR, I DO HAVE ONE THOUGH. I THE FALL TWO WEEKS. GOOD. NO, IT'S NOT YOUR TURN. HOLD ON. OKAY, . UM, ALRIGHT, SO WE'RE GONNA CLOSE THE FLOOR AND WE'RE GONNA OPEN IT TO PUBLIC COMMENT. WE'RE GONNA CLOSE THE FLOOR, WE'RE GONNA OPEN THE BOARD DISCUSSION TO GO. SO FOR ALL DUE RESPECT, IS THIS HOW YOU GUYS CLASSIFY THAT THIS IS A SIMULATION OF A OVERWASHED EVENT? BECAUSE THE WAY I UNDERSTOOD IT, YOU ARE BASICALLY TRYING TO BUILD UP A HIGH MARSH TO MAKE IT MORE CAPABLE. WHO'S GONNA DO THIS OF STOPPING EROSION? WHO'S GONNA DO THIS MOVEMENT OF THE ISLAND? IS THAT I DON'T, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO GET TO WHAT YOUR VIEW OF WHY YOU'RE DOING THIS IN TERMS OF PUTTING DOWN I'VE ON THE HIGH MARSH. IT'S NOT A SIMULATION OF SIMULATION, IS IT? NO. OKAY. THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT. OKAY. SHORT ANSWER. OKAY. THANK YOU. ALRIGHT. I'M JUST GONNA, YEAH, WE'RE ARE WE, ARE WE DONE? UH, I, I THINK WE ARE DONE. UH, IT'S, YOU ASKED IT. ARE YOU NOT AT END OF BOARD DISCUSSION, YES OR NO? ALRIGHT. UH, THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO JPA 2 0 24 DASH 2360, UH, FROM THE CROMACK COUNTY. AND I ASK FOR SOMEONE TO MAKE A MOTION. GO AHEAD MR. BADGER. I WILL START IT. LET'S PUT IT LIKE THAT. AND WE MAY BE TWEAKING IT AS WE GO. HOW ABOUT THAT? UM, THIS IS A COUNTY PROJECT APPROVED BY THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS. THE ONLY REASON IT'S IN FRONT OF US IS BECAUSE THERE'S THREE IN HOLDINGS INSIDE THIS PROJECT. IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT, IT WOULDN'T BE IN FRONT OF US AT ALL. UH, THAT BEING SAID, UM, I DO HAVE, WELL, AND VIMS IS COMING AND SAYING THAT THIS IS AN APPROPRIATE PROJECT, WHICH IS NORMALLY WHAT WE DO GO TO WHEN WE ASK FOR PROJECT INFORMATION AND RECOMMENDATIONS, WE GO TO VIMS. MRS. HIMES HAS SAID THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHE THINKS IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE, FOR THE, UH, LOCATION. THAT BEING SAID, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH NOT REPLANTING. UH, I HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH NOT REPLANTING MOTION. WE WOULDN'T LET ANYBODY ELSE GET AWAY WITH IT. THE MOTION? YEAH. SO, UH, I RECOMMEND WE APPROVE THE PROJECT WITH A THREE TO FIVE YEAR REPLANTING PLAN APPROVED BY THREE STAFF. NO, BY US. I THINK IT'S GOTTA BE US. UH, MAYBE AT THE NEXT MEETING OR WHENEVER THEY CAN DO IT. YOU GETTING THIS GINGER? YES. YOU WANT HIM TO SAY IT AGAIN? YES, PLEASE. . I'M SORRY, PATRICK. NO, NO. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN SAY IT AGAIN, BUT I'LL TRY. UH, I RECOMMEND APPROVAL AT THE PROJECT AS SUBMITTED WITH A, UH, THREE TO FIVE YEAR PLANTING PLAN. UH, THAT WILL HAVE TO COME BACK IN FRONT OF THE WETLANDS BOARD [03:05:01] AT THE NEXT MEETING OR THE MONTH, MONTH AFTER, UH, TO BE APPROVED. AND DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THE PERMIT FIVE YEARS, MONTHS, OR JUST TWO YEARS LIKE WE NORMALLY DO? WELL, I THINK IF WE DO A THREE TO FIVE YEAR PLANTING, HOLD ON. UH, IT'S GONNA BE TWO YEARS. OKAY. WITH THE ABILITY TO COME BACK FOR TWO MORE. OKAY. AND THEN DO WE ALLOW TWO MORE AFTER THAT? I THINK WE THREE TIMES. THREE TIMES. VERY GOOD. SO THAT GETS SHIPPED. PUT IT IN THERE PLEASE. UH, YEAH. UH, FOR TWO YEARS, THE PLANNING, UH, EXCUSE ME, UH, PERMIT FOR TWO YEARS. OKAY. THAT'S MY MOTION. THAT'S IT. NOW DO YOU WANT THE PLANNINGS TO BE, UH, FOR THE ATE COVERED OF MARSH OR DO YOU WANT IT BE FOR THE SUB ATE THAT'S, THAT'S, UH, FILLED AND, AND PLANTED THERE TOO? WELL, I THINK IT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE ALL OF IT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE JURISDICTION ON THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, IT'S GONNA BE PART OF THE REPLANTING PLAN THAT VMRC IS GONNA BE LOOKING AT IN THE CORE. I'M UNDERSTANDING. MAYBE CAN WE BE A LITTLE BIT MORE SPECIFIC IF IT'S ANYTHING THAT'S FILLED ONE FOOT MORE THAT WE WOULD NEED REPLANTING? UH, WELL, WE'RE, WE'RE ASKING FOR A REPLANTING PLAN. WE DON'T HAVE TO APPROVE IT. OKAY. SO LET'S, LET'S EVALUATE IT ONCE. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. THIS IS FOR REPLANTING PLAN. OKAY. DOES EVERYONE UNDERSTAND THAT? IS THE J IS THE MOTION COMPLETE? SENATOR, YOU'VE GOT IT. YES, I HAVE IT. ALRIGHT. UM, I CALL, UM, I'LL SECOND FOR A SECOND. I'LL SECOND. ALRIGHT. I CALL FOR A VOTE. AND WHAT, WELL, WE'RE GONNA HAVE A VOTE STARTING WITH MR. BADGER. AYE. AYE. I NO, A PASSES 4, 4 1. YEAH. FOUR ONE. I'M GONNA GO AHEAD AND CRY. UH, UM, OKAY. SO WE'VE GOT THE MOTION, UH, AND, UM, IT HAS BEEN APPROVED FOR THE FIRST TIME TWO YEARS AND OF COURSE, COME BACK AGAIN. ALRIGHT, THAT IS COMPLETE. UM, YOU WANNA DO YOUR, YOUR LITTLE COMMENT ABOUT IT DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHTS TO ENCROACH ON THE, UH, YES. UH, THE PERMIT. HOLD THE PHONE A MINUTE, PLEASE. MOTION. MOTION IS NOT COMPLETE YET. GENTLEMEN, THE PERMIT IS APPROVED FOR A TWO YEAR PERIOD FROM TODAY'S DATE. ALL PARTIES ARE ADVISED THAT THE FOREGONE DETERMINATION GRANTS NO AUTHORITY TO ENCROACH ON THE PROPERTY OF OTHERS. OKAY. UH, THAT IS, UH, NOW WE'RE GOING TO ASK IF ANYONE HAS ANYTHING TO SAY OTHER THAN WHAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH TODAY. IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE , BUT THE, UH, FLOOR IS NOW OPEN IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT WHAT TIME THE SUN'S GOING DOWN. MR. CHAIRMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE BOARD'S DELIBERATION, UH, THE PUBLIC'S INVOLVEMENT IN THIS PROCESS. I BELIEVE IN THE PROCESS. SO THANK YOU FOR THAT. YES, SIR. UM, BASED ON YOUR MOTION, UH, WE WILL BE REGROUPING, UH, AND LOOKING AT, UM, THE REPLANTING PLAN THAT YOU HAVE REQUESTED TO RECEIVE, UH, AND THEN COMING BACK TO THE BOARD, WE DO REALIZE THAT, UH, THERE ARE SEVERAL THAT CAN, UM, WE CAN OVERSTEP OUR BOUNDARIES AND, UM, IT'LL GO TO VMRC, ET CETERA. UH, BUT MAKE SURE WHAT WE THINK IS WHAT WE GOTTA SAY, SIR. UNDERSTOOD ALL. UM, THE, UH, NEXT GO PLEASE. UM, I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WE DON'T HAVE ANY JPA FOR THE, UH, YOU STOLE IT RIGHT OFF MY SHEET FOR THE FEBRUARY MEETING. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE PLANNING TO GET A REPLANTING PLAN OR IF THEY NEED THAT FOR, YOU'LL FIND OUT FOR FEBRUARY OR IF THAT WOULD BE MORE CONVENIENT FOR EVERYBODY, UH, TO WAIT UNTIL MARCH, FEBRUARY 4TH OF MARCH. WHAT'S THAT? FEBRUARY 4TH OF MARCH. I'M SORRY. YOU STILL HAVE TIME, UH, FOR, I DON'T HAVE THE, WITH ME, BUT SHE HAS TIME, UH, FOR FEBRUARY IF SHE CHOOSES. WELL, UH, AS OF RIGHT NOW, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ON THE DOCKET. OKAY. SO I JUST WANTED TO SEE IF THEY NEED, WELL, WE DON'T NEED ANY, UM, FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, JUST, YOU KNOW, 10 DAYS BEFOREHAND OR SO. UM, SO I COULD GET IT TO THE BOARD IN PLENTY OF TIME. [03:10:01] OKAY. OKAY. IF IT'S ACCEPTABLE, TOUCHING BASE LATER AFTER MEETING. OKAY. FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT THAT'S HIS JOB, MA'AM. YOU TOUCH BASE ANYTIME YOU WANT. UH, THEREFORE, UH, WE'RE TELLING EVERYONE THERE'LL BE NO FEBRUARY, UH, WETLANDS BOARD MEETING. IS THAT CORRECT? UM, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THEY, THEY MAY GET IN TOUCH WITH ME TO, IF, IF THEY CAN GET THEIR PLAN TOGETHER IN A TIMELY FASHION, WE CAN DO THEN THEREFORE NEXT MONTH MEETING IS SCHEDULED FOR FEBRUARY 26 WITHOUT ANY NEW JPA OR NEED. MARCH MEETING IS SCHEDULED FOR MARCH 26TH, 2026 AT 10 O'CLOCK RIGHT HERE. UH, THAT'S IT. WE'RE FINISHED WITH BOARD DISCUSSION, EVERYTHING AND MEETING IS ADJOURNED. ALRIGHT. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.